Watching the Untrusted Implode

At La Breche du Rolande between France and Spain, French Pyrennees, June 1998

At La Breche du Rolande between France and Spain, French Pyrennees, June 1998

Welcome to The Real Untrusted

for a brief introduction to this site – read here

“The citadel of established practice seldom falls to the polite knock of a good idea. It may however yield to a long siege, a pre-emptive strike, a wooden horse or a cunning alliance.” 

Once again Ally Fogg mounts his “what about the men” male circumcision hobby horse with a Guardian  article suggesting, for want of some proper research, that “all those Africans are the same”.

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Backtothepoint on the Hamas execution, without trial, of 21 Palestinians accused of spying for Israel:

Yes, that was disgusting. Sometimes Hamas can be almost as barbaric as Israel.

I wonder if he includes these Israeli teenagers who refuse to accept the draft,  in his racist accusation?

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Julian Assange

Given his announcement that he intends to leave the Ecuadorian Embassy, it’s time to revisit the Julian Assange case. Here’s BeautifulBurnout giving her finest legal opinion at the time, ably supported by Backtothepoint:

“This whole business stinks to high-heaven which mirrors her judgement when the accusations were first made when she posted:

Call me a tinfoil hatter if you like (and I wish I could remember KT’s neoligism for it), but does anyone else believe this pile of steaming crap?”

Now claiming that an accusation of rape is “a pile of steaming crap” and “stinks to high heaven” doesn’t make someone a rape apologist, but it does rather undermine the excellent work this paper’s journalists (the Guardian) have done over many years to have the crime taken seriously, especially when it comes from a senior female member of the legal profession.

More here:   Julian Assange – who said what, when and where?

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Interesting that while it took the Tricycle Theatre weeks to back down, Sainsbury’s managed it in just a few hours.

It’s Customer Manager writes – As a non-political organisation, Sainsbury’s would never take such a decision on grounds other than ensuring the quality or safety of our products.

Although it would appear that the safety and dignity of its Jewish customers and suppliers of its Kosher food is of secondary importance to the demands of the braying racist mob outside the store.

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The Tricycle Theatre has backed down in its row with the UK Jewish Film Festival and agreed to accept funding from the Israeli Embassy.

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Todra Gorge Morocco

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Some new photographs   - here in Photographs 22

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 Today’s Music

As from today – (sometime in early 2013) “A Change is gonna Come” and hence the track which is from almost 500, vaguely described as pop and rock, on my MP4 player that I use mainly when I’m running at the gym or outdoors, or when I’m doing things I rather not like ironing clothes, cleaning and so on. This one by coincidence comes top of the list when arranged in alphabetical order. Of course I’ll intersperse them with some great jazz and classical music.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – Piano Concerto No. 21 – Andante

Yesterday’s Music

Every Breath You Take  –  Police

Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers – Alone Together

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In the beginning……….. How the CiF rebels turned hypocrisy into an art form-  is now elsewhere  – making comments posted here easier to access – I hope.

To Comment click here & page to the bottom  

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8,581 Comments

  1. Paul

     /  August 28, 2014

    Afternoon all

    Well the post i ”stored” here from the Samira Ahmed thread has also been zapped.I’m guessing it was deemed off-topic for some reason.Have asked the mods for an explanation so it’ll be interesting to see what,if anything,they come back with.

    Hope you had a good holiday Bru.

    Reply
    • brusselsexpats

       /  August 28, 2014

      Thanks Paul I did but it’s not over yet……at least in Venice I’ll get some good weather (she said as a storm raged over the lagoon).

  2. brusselsexpats

     /  August 28, 2014

    Hi Sara,

    I’m talking about cultural differences here – mainly in the treatment of women and female children. Personally I’ve never had problems with the Moroccan community here for example but nevertheless their values are different from ours. Maybe it’s an economic thing as well. For example there is a huge difference between the wealthy, well-educated Turkish community (who I really like) and the immigrants who come from small villages. It’s like dealing with two different nationalities.

    Having said that there is often a huge difference, even with white Europeans, between rich and poor. I’m thinking of countries like Italy for example where the North/South divide is very noticeable.

    Anyway got some work to finish off before heading back out….

    I’m landing in Venice in time for the film festival apparently. It wasn’t planned that way.

    Reply
  3. Sara

     /  August 28, 2014

    Hi Paul ”I’m also reeling at the news from Rotherham.If fear of being branded a racist was an issue in the failure to act then it highlights something that’s clearly gone very wrong in our multi-cultural society.But irrespective of that we need an open and independent Inquiry to call to account all those who had the power to stop the abuse but failed to do so.”

    Thought you might be interested in this comment on multiculturalism..by a poster called Shatterface( not on cif.. obviously)

    One problem is that the term ‘multiculturalism’ is used in two different ways: there’s cultural diversity – the coexistence of different cultures within a parent culture – and the political organisation or administration of this mix.

    When people complain about multiculturalism it’s usually the first meaning of the term they are addressing; this comes from a resentment of the existence of other cultures within what is considered the ‘authentic’ or ‘traditional’ national culture, and fears about the ‘dilution’ or ‘mongrelisation’ of that national culture.

    Because this ‘critique’ of multiculturalism is largely xenophobic it tarnishes attempts to address the second meaning of multiculturalism: the political and economic administration of different cultures within the wider social body.

    This second critique of multiculturalism addresses the problem of creating or exacerbating social divisions according to ethnicity as a deliberate administrative tool. This is the assignment of people to cultural or ethnic boxes, each of which is seen as ‘authentic’ to that culture; the funding of community projects rooted purely in ethnicity (rather than, say, class or locality); and above all the promotion of (usually self-appointed) ‘community leaders’ to represent those communities, usually drawn from the most privileged and conservative branches of that community.

    The problem is that anyone attempting to address this second notion of multiculturalism is automatically assumed to be attacking ‘multiculturalism’ in the first sense of the term, either by liberals and left wingers who don’t want to face up to the reality of divisive policies, or right wingers who think you are on their side because they are too stupid to understand your actual argument.

    Reply
  4. brusselsexpats

     /  August 28, 2014

    Morning all,

    Back briefly from holiday and heading for Venice tomorrow for a wedding.

    Desde – glad you are now installed in your new home. It sounds nice.

    I’m appalled at the Rotherham scandal. There is of course a racial element – I’ve said this before when commenting on the Loverboy phenomenon in the Netherlands. One thing is certain – this scandal, coupled with the bloodthirsty warfare of ISIS, is not doing the image of Islam any good at all.

    It’s inconceivable that every single one of the families of the mainly Asian abusers knew nothing of what was going on.

    It’s also inconceivable that the police and social services knew nothing. What we know of corruption in the police forces and judiciary during the Prohibition era in the US, is that it’s relatively easy to pay off the police and other authorities and give them “sweeteners” to look the other way. My own opinion is that this has been happening in Rotherham. Strong evidence in the form of clothes doesn’’t just “go missing”. That police force is a nest of vipers in collusion with the abusers. A massive investigation should be established immediately.

    All my comments as a Western women about never wanting to live under a Muslim patriarchy – made during the recent I/P controversy stand, and I would go one further. I wouldn’t want to live in a traditional Muslim family even in Europe. The chasm with our way of life is just too wide. That’s not racism – I believe in giving Muslims freedom of worship and equality under our laws but the majority population should not have to put up with having Sharia law rammed down its throat or have to countenance the worse-than-medieval attitude to women and female children.

    I’ve always considered it suspect that a certain type of Western male finds affinity with the Muslim mindset – it’s obviously comforting to them that women and gays are treated like dirt. Not really surprised such a mindset finds fertile ground in the North of England.

    I bet Pointy has been a bit quiet on the subject. As for George Galloway – expect a massive apology for the abusers in the near future.

    Desde – I can remember the time CJ posted all night and all weekend – usually rather inebriated she was. The time she was flirting like mad with Hank…… You don’t owe anyone an explanation.

    Reply
    • Sara

       /  August 28, 2014

      Hi Bru, hope you’re enjoying your holiday, I don’t agree there’s such a thing as a ‘Muslim mindset’

    • Hi Bruss

      Wedding in Venice – sounds wonderful.

      I think Britain’s image is looking bad now – Savile, Harris and now Rotherham: with all the implications Savile had of hobnobbing with Royalty, politicians and wandering round a secure hospital. Goodness knows what the outside world thinks of it, we cannot really come to terms with it ourselves yet. There really must be change now as regards child abuse, whoever the perpetrators and victims are. No more mealy-mouthed apologies.

  5. Had this moderated from Cif this morning:

    ‘”that the majority of perpetrators of child sexual exploitation are white’

    But are all or most gangs of child rapists white? On the other thread, now closed, someone’s claimed Savile didn’t act alone but there has been no solid evidence that he abused alongside other men or women in an organised way, like the Rotherham, Oxford, Bradford, Rochdale and Peterborough gangs did. There are also allegations of similar gangs from other parts of the country. It looks as if some people looked the other way re Savile but so far no one’s said groups of other men were physically present and watched or that he sold girls on.

    It also gets claimed that there are gangs of white men abusing children but these aren’t named. The most notorious one that I know of is the Sydney Cooke gang of paedophiles who not only committed rape but murdered a young boy. However, although they were all white they weren’t from the same culture or country. They were all prosecuted. The other instances I can think of where there were several white abusers involved it was also not on this organised scale as in Rotherham. In the case of Colin Blanchard who was convicted of being the leader of a gang of child abusers – 3 women: Dawber, George and Lyons – some of the abusers never actually met each other and only had contact via the internet. Their religion and culture is not known.

    It is the pattern of abusing within a gang that appears significant with regard to culture, religion or race. There can be no harm in examining this as other factors are also studied like gender, age, relationship to victim, sexuality and so on.
    My guess is that most abuse is within families and sometimes that can be organised on a large scale but the gangs of men who know each other and abuse together hasn’t been properly studied and won’t be if there’s pussyfooting around race and religion.”

    Reply
    • Sara

       /  August 28, 2014

      Hi Desde, unbelivable they deleted that comment… WTF is wrong with these people? you should email community suggestions and get them to either come up with a reason why it was zapped or reinstate it

    • Paul

       /  August 28, 2014

      Hi Desde

      As far as i know the majority of convicted child sex offenders in this country are White which shouldn’t come as a surprise given 86% of the population is White.However i’ve never seen an evidence which suggests any link between ethnicity and culture on the one hand and rates of paedophlia on the other.And irrespective of whether the abusers operate in gangs or alone.One of the points i made in my first deleted cif post was the importance of not demonizing the decent majority of ethnic Pakistani men living in Rotherham.For it’s a fact that those of us with Black and Brown skins tend to get negatively tarred with the same brush with much more ease than is generally the case with White men.

      However i absolutely accept that if fear of being branded racist was/is a factor in explaining why the abuse wasn’t stopped in Rotherham or elsewhere then that’s a problem which we can’t just sweep under the carpet.I fully accept that.As is any failure by the authorites to intervene with any unacceptable/criminal practices within any religious or ethnic minority community because they don’t want to rock the boat.And if poor,abused and vulnerable children and teenagers nationwide and irrespective of ethnicity are treated by the authorities as though they’re either expendable or deserve whatever abuse /exploitation they get then something must be done about that,

      Here in London there’s a charity-i think it’s a charity-called Kids Company which works with abused and brutalized children who the mainstream agencies have given up on.And they have to fight tooth and nail to get the funding they need.And it typifies a fundamental problem .For lack of funding means there simply aren’t the good quality services to help and support these ”lost children”.

  6. Logged into Cif to see that Suzanne Moore had an article about abuse relating to the Rotherham report and it was already closed; could hardly have been open for many hours. I’d like to have commented on that, there is so much to say.

    Despite what CalamityBurnout said about me being up all night posting here, I go to bed quite early as I have to be up in the morning: we can’t all be up posting all night, so don’t get the chance to post on some threads which close so early. It must be seen as a touchy subject to be open for such a short time.

    If abuse is about picking on poor, powerless victims as Moore claims then surely we’d see far more black and brown victims or mixed race etc for these are the groups we are constantly told are the poorest, the most disempowered and least likely to be heard due to racism and sectarianism?

    There is a racial or cultural aspect to these gangs – as distinct from lone abusers or abusers in families. There is no reason why we should shy away from looking at it. After all, society has now taken on board that women can abuse, that people of all ages and genders can abuse. No harm at looking at this pattern of abuse too.

    Reply
  7. Paul

     /  August 27, 2014

    Evening Bitey

    Feel free to delete the following if it’s clogging up the thread.It’s a copy of my second attempt at posting on the Samira Ahmed thread on cif.The first one got zapped and i’ve no idea why.

    ”’ My post upthread was zapped so i’ll try again.

    I agree that the issue of race mustn’t be either ignored or played when assessing what clearly went very wrong in Rotherham.And that those who had the power to stop the abuse and didn’t must be fully held to account in an independent Inquiry.

    If we’re to ever become a multicultural society which is at ease with itself then we can’t have different rules applied to different communities.So if the agents of the state who turned a blind eye to what was going on in Rotherham did so to avoid any accusations of racism and to keep in with community leaders then this mustn’t be allowed to happen again .And people are within their rights to question whether a similar ”understanding ” between the agents of the state and largely male community leaders elsewhere in the UK is also responsible for allowing a variety of abuses to go unchecked.For if it is then it highlights just how fragile our multicultural society is.And speaking as someone who comes from an ethnic-minority community i know it’s something we can’t simply bury our heads in the sand over.For that’ll simply create more problems which will have to be dealt with at sometime in the future.

    So yes, the Rotherham scandal, as in Oxford and Rochdale, is about race. But look deeper and it’s really about wider attitudes by some men to women and girls. Or “slags”, as I notice in the search terms that people use everyday to find articles about these cases. And that might be the most uncomfortable truth

    The treatment of and attitudes towards women and girls within some ethnic and religious minority communities can sometimes be totally unacceptable.With young women and girls bearing the brunt of it.But older women in these communities have on occasion been guilty of colluding with the men.And women from all backgrounds can be every bit as unsympathetic as men to the way young women who’re perceived to be ”easy” can get treated.So yes the attitudes some men have towards women need to be vigorously challenged.But on occasion so do the attitudes of some women.”

    Reply
    • Hi Paul,

      It’s a good contribution to the debate and thanks for posting it here and getting it in a form that was acceptable to the Guardian’s mods.

      And at least in its editorial the Guardian is now saying – “Then there was a misguided reluctance to consider whether there was an issue of race involved.” And“Ethnicity did play a part in the Rotherham abuse, not because this particular pattern of abuse is restricted to a particular group (the behaviour is typical of many gangs) but because many of those who might have taken action feared the wider, societal, consequences if they did.”

      It’s also amazing that Shaun Wright, South Yorkshire’s police and crime commissioner, still feels there’s no reason for him to resign.

    • Hi Paul

      As a reporter was saying on the radio today, this isn’t just Rotherham, Rochdale and Bradford but many more too – 2 separate cases in Peterborough, Leeds, Manchester and several other cities plus allegations from other areas. He pointed out that there was a refusal to look at the patterns that were emerging despite looking at patterns of abuse in the Catholic church and in the BBC re Savile etc.

    • Just incredible Paul. If any party said they’d tackle the housing situation and had a good plan, they’d get my vote at the next election.

  8. I’m free!

    Released from pre-mod this morning.

    Reply
    • Sara

       /  August 27, 2014

      Cor that took a while

    • Paul

       /  August 27, 2014

      Afternoon all

      @Glad you’re out of pre-mod at long last desde.

      @I’m also reeling at the news from Rotherham.If fear of being branded a racist was an issue in the failure to act then it highlights something that’s clearly gone very wrong in our multi-cultural society.But irrespective of that we need an open and independent Inquiry to call to account all those who had the power to stop the abuse but failed to do so.

      Whether that’ll bring about real change is of course another matter.For no matter how many Inquiries are held into the abuse of vulnerable adults and children in this country the right checks and balances still clearly aren’t being implemented to significantly reduce the likelihood of it happening.

    • Paul

       /  August 27, 2014

      the right checks and balances still clearly aren’t being implemented to significantly reduce the likelihood of it happening.

      Meant to say ”…..the right checks and balances still clearly aren’t being put in place to significantly reduce the likelihood of it happening ”

    • Congrats Desde, I just hope they’re not monitoring this place.

    • ‘Cor that took a while’. – Sara

      My crimes were very serious.

    • Hi Desde,

      Congratulations are in order. :)

  9. The report into abuse in Rotherham is beyond shocking. Why do these huge scandals about children being abused keep happening in Britain? Is it simply that other countries don’t deal with abuse or do we have a culture of sweeping things under the carpet if they’re uncomfortable?

    Now – those who were abused need help and support and there should be decent protection systems in place.

    Reply
    • Hi Desde,

      Good post and questions that need answering. This from the Guardian’s report about the resignation of Roger Stone, Rotherham’s Labour council leader since 2003 is frankly quite staggering:

      “Yet everyone else involved will keep their jobs, according to council chief executive Martin Kimber. He said he did not have the evidence to discipline any individuals working for the council despite the report saying ‘Over the first 12 years covered by this inquiry, the collective failures of political and officer leadership were blatant’.”

    • Good morning Bitey.

      As I was listening to the revelations about Rotherham yesterday I was fuming.

      Commenting on Cif is overwhelmingly critical of the political correctness perceived in the council and police force. Don’t know how the defenders of PC are going to deal with this one.

    • Sara

       /  August 27, 2014

      Morning all, yes the abuse is truly beyond shocking, those poor young girls abandoned by every agency and authority that was supposed to protect them, when will these agencies ever be held to account and what can now be done to help the girls?

    • Hi Sara

      There was a victim, now in her 20s, speaking on Radio 4 and I felt very proud of her: she’s sanguine about what happened to her and very thoughtful. Although one can’t deny the damage done it isn’t all hopeless. They need the support as you say. Girls doused in petrol … it’s just savagery.

  10. Having a big garden has revealed that Rudi has a love of sunbathing – he’ll squash himself into a tiny little spot of sunshine and follow the sun around. Never had a dog like that – only cats. He is beautifully warm and very cuddleable after his sunbathing.

    Reply
  11. Paul

     /  August 25, 2014

    A gentle track from Beverley Craven for the early hours.Hope those in the UK are enjoying the Bank Holiday.

    Reply
    • Hi Paul

      Woke up to the sound of rain, so was immediately reminded it’s a Bank Holiday. There’s a band playing later on in an outside event, so hope it’s not cancelled – it’s so hard when people have worked to put on a show.

      Thanks for the good music.

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