Watching the Untrusted Implode

On the left hard alcohol; on the right cigarettes.

On the left hard alcohol; on the right cigarettes.

Welcome to The Real Untrusted

for a brief introduction to this site – read here

“The citadel of established practice seldom falls to the polite knock of a good idea. It may however yield to a long siege, a pre-emptive strike, a wooden horse or a cunning alliance.” 


Ally Fogg on the United Nation’s HeForShe campaign

Here’s Ally Fogg somewhat contradicting himself and his opposition to the United Nation’s HeFor She campaign:

Asked by one of his posters:

So, in improving things for women, transssexuals, the deaf, I am actually improving things for men?

Fogg replied:  –  Yes. Absolutely.

How things can change in just 14 months.


The United Nations launches a campaign for people to stand as one against all forms of violence and discrimination faced by women and girls and Ally Fogg won’t support it because it doesn’t include violence by woman against men.


And even more pathetic is his response to the opposition of many of his regulars:

We’re no strangers to strong disagreements here at HetPat, and I assume that most of what I write will lead to angry reactions from one quarter or other.

But what’s missing from this are the words – “which is why I ban those who post comments I can’t or won’t answer“.

Now Fogg claims:

When I heard Emma Watson’s speech last weekend, I was given the impression that what we were being offered, finally……. was the inseparability of men’s and women’s gender issues.

Well he must have been the only man in the world who thought that’s what she was talking about and as Fogg isn’t that lacking in the ability to understand English I can only assume this was an even more pathetic attempt at after the event rationalisation.

And now:

Ally Fogg  says to Mike Buchanan: (see below)

“Start by learning the important lesson that if you associate yourself with overtly misogynistic ideas, like stopping all benefits to single mothers, and overtly misogynistic people like Paul Elam and John Hembling, then you will quite rightly be excluded from reasonable and constructive media and political space.”

And yet he allows Buchanan to post on his blog, but bans me who has opposed misogynism and campaigned for feminist ideas on Comment is Free, both of Ally’s sites, The Untrusted and here for over eight years.

Forgive me for thinking Ally Fogg that you’re far closer to Buchanan than you imagine. And your latest couple of articles have proved the point.

And now about Free Thought Blogs that hosts Ally Fogg’s increasingly “what about the menz” blog:

FTB is supposed to be a non-MRA zone, or so I thought. I’ve been a lurker here for a while and every time I see your posts, it’s obvious to me that you share MRA points of views. You always use MRA talking points and subtle fear mongering tactics (“5 words that betrayed Emma Watson”… REALLY???) quite frankly I’m wondering when everyone else is gonna wise up and see you for what you really are. Even if you don’t identify or believe this to be true, fact of the matter is you’re still spreading their filth.

Still spreading their filth.

And here’s another poster who hits the nail right on the head:

Instead of trying to create your own plan for discussion & action, your post came across (to me, and from the reaction, to others) as criticizing someone else’s plan for not talking about the things you want to talk about.

And what after so much criticism of his attempt to disrupt the UN’s campaign?

To re-write it’s pledge to read:

Gender equality is not only a women’s issue, it is a human rights issue that requires my participation. I commit to take action against all forms of violence and discrimination faced by women and girls and men.

To which Fogg responds:

That’s the most constructive response I’ve seen this week, I think.


Ally Fogg writes in his latest offering (more about this later):

 Even if some really nasty, racist, homophobic EDL organiser was being subjected to the kind of systematic persecution campaigns that have been waged against Sarkeesian or Quinn I would unreservedly condemn them.

Yet while I have never posted anything that’s even a mildly abusive on his blog, and I have a complete record that I’ve copied here, at times Ally Fogg has descended to the most abusive in his responses to posters like me, who challenge his presumed hegemony.


I see Ally Fogg is greatly admired by Mike Buchanan.

And who is Mike Buchanan? He’s an anti-feminist woman hater, who I’m surprised, given Ally’s penchant for censorship, is allowed on his blog.

Here’s one of Buchanan’s pieces:

Whiny Feminists of the Month – Laura Bates, Caroline Criado-Perez, Harriet Harman MP, Jo Swinson MP…

Fortunately the judge had other ideas to those of Buchanan – Two people who subjected feminist Caroline Criado-Perez to abuse on Twitter have been handed jail sentences.


Gormless Feminists of the Month – Fawcett Society, ‘Clean Break’ theatre company, Eva Wiseman, Yvette Cooper MP, Jessica Valenti

Eva Wiseman writes in the Guardian:

We know that these misogynists, who sneer online or grope on trains or kill, do not exist in vacuums. They are formed by cultures that glorify violence against women, that tell men they’re owed sex, that contribute to that background hum every woman learns to block out – every woman learns, early, to be at least a little bit terrified. We’re right not to ignore the emails, threats and comments.

And here’s Ally Fogg’s view on a serious article “Women of Britain, let’s form our own feminist party”  by Ellie Mae O’Hagan in yesterday’s Guardian.

Believe it or not, it already exists. It’s called ‘Justice for Men and Boys’ and I’m not going to link.

And what I assume he intends as some kind of smutty joke humour:

I’ll happily push a wheelbarrow and be milked for sperm.

And who is Mike Buchanan?  He runs the Justice for Men and Boys website.

How in just a few years can Ally Fogg change from being one of the Guardian’s main male supporters of feminism to become an outright anti-feminist like Mike Buchanan?


Some new photographs   - here in Photographs 22


 Today’s Music

As from today – (sometime in early 2013) “A Change is gonna Come” and hence the track which is from almost 500, vaguely described as pop and rock, on my MP4 player that I use mainly when I’m running at the gym or outdoors, or when I’m doing things I rather not like ironing clothes, cleaning and so on. This one by coincidence comes top of the list when arranged in alphabetical order. Of course I’ll intersperse them with some great jazz and classical music.

Everybody I Love You – Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young

Yesterday’s Music

Every Breath You Take – The Police

Philip Glass – Morning Passages


In the beginning……….. How the CiF rebels turned hypocrisy into an art form-  is now elsewhere  – making comments posted here easier to access – I hope.

To Comment click here & page to the bottom  

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  1. Morning everyone.

    It’s been said many times but it really is disgusting that the Labour party has abandoned the poor and others at the bottom of society. All they do – as do many who profess to be politically on the left – is go on about nurses when the low paid are discussed. Not those working in distribution centres, shops, cafes, the service industry – just the nurses. That leaves a large minority with no representation and no voice – no wonder many don’t vote and don’t get involved in any activity within their community, what’s left of their community. The Labour party is a party for public sector employees, most specifically nurses, teachers and social workers which is what they’ve got on the brain.

    The real low paid and hard done by are just invisible and forgotten. A tragedy.

    Right, once more into the breach dear friends. I think this may be my last day as I can’t physically go on any longer. One thing’s for sure, I’m not doing this job without being paid.

  2. 101

     /  September 29, 2014

    Hello everyone. Unfortunately health problems have kept me away for a while (I did try to post from hospital but they didn’t get through.) Am back home now (for a ‘trial’ period) and hope to post more often soon.

    Best wishes to all.

    • Evening all and nice to see you here again 101. Sorry to hear about your health problems and hope they will soon be history.

      I’m struggling with a touch of bronchitis at the moment so won’t be around for a day or two while I “take the antibiotics” and get back into form.

    • Hi Bru,

      Get well soon to you too.

    • Sara

       /  September 29, 2014

      hi 101, sorry to hear you’ve been unwell, have been thinking of you

    • Hi 101, and welcome back.

      Your absence has been remarked upon several times over however long it’s been – actually well over 3 months. :( No doubt you’ll let us know more in due course, or not as the case may be.

    • Hello 101 – nice to have you back: you have been missed. I hope you get back to full health soon.

  3. Evening all.

    Asking my room attendant colleagues why they put up with doing a job like that the responses were: ‘there aren’t many jobs about’, ‘it’s just the way it is’ or ‘I can’t do anything else’. I must admit I felt rather annoyed at some of the whiney defeatism. On pressing one woman why she didn’t do anything to challenge the system, she replied; ‘I do it for the money’ after walking out twice and coming back 3 times. However on meeting her in the shops today, she confided that she hadn’t been paid – that’s right, not at all, yet claimed she was doing it for the money. She also said that another colleague didn’t get paid for 4 months – but continued doing the work! Unbelievable. None of us have written contracts.

    Words can’t express how this situation is or why it came to be like this. No one stands up for anyone else or shows any solidarity. Walking out leads to benefits being sanctioned.

    • Hi Desde,

      Words can’t express how this situation is or why it came to be like this. No one stands up for anyone else or shows any solidarity. Walking out leads to benefits being sanctioned.

      You’re certainly right that the the sanctions regime has become a great deal more severe that it’s been in the recent past – say since the 1960s. And the decline in trade union membership means far fewer workers have even that support when it’s needed.

      But there have always been large numbers of people for whom work and the company it brings, is the main part of their lives. I know people who had pretty mundane civil service jobs, took early retirement / severance in their early / mid 50s and after a few weeks returned to the same workplace on a “casual employment” basis, simply because they didn’t know what to do with all that free time.

  4. brusselsexpats

     /  September 24, 2014

    Paul, Desde – yes these places have all the allure of those mid-western towns in the US, nothing but soulless shopping malls and highway.

  5. Because of the huge growth in population*, a GP practice in Milton Keynes has had to expand its surgery including converting a toilet into a consulting room. They’ve been promised money to fund this but it’s never forthcoming. This practice covers an area which has seen a lot of new housebuilding and there are currently several building sites one of which is building about 1,500 new houses. Why are houses being built without the necessary increase in health care, schools and roads etc? It also occurs to me, what jobs are these people who live in the new builds going to do? There are already many out of work or in low paid or part time work and still claiming benefits and looking for something better. The houses are also encroaching on the countryside which has value for quality of life.

    The new estates look very soul-less and have clearly just been plonked there without any natural growth the way older towns have developed. There will inevitably be long term consequences of sticking huge estates on the edges of towns and cities.

    *I’m assuming that but think there are other issues too for problems at GP practices.

    • brusselsexpats

       /  September 24, 2014

      Morning all,

      Hi Desde – a friend moved to Wisbech in Cambridgeshire two years ago and has this really nice house, huge place but she says there are no amenities. Broadband hardly works. Half the time she can’t even get a signal for her mobile phone.

      Half the shops in the village are boarded up. If you don’t have a car (and the price of petrol to get there is prohibitive) you are stuffed basically. Of course jobs are practically non-existent and she says she has never seen so many people on mobility scooters.

      In short, she is bored stiff and can’t wait to move.

    • Hi Bruss

      Lets hope developers learn from these mistakes and build garden cities with facilities and within reach of jobs. Camborne in Cambs is one of those dead soul-less towns, stuck on the side of a main road, nothing there except small businesses like a hairdressers and an estate agents and Morrisons. It is impossible to walk or cycle anywhere as it’s too dangerous thus even though a distance may be short one has to drive or get a bus. Milton Keynes was an example of how not to build a city – flat roofed houses made of cheap building material which has not aged well and many of the estates are crime ridden and those who bought those houses now can’t sell them or have to sell them at a low price. It’s all designed for the motorist and the much-vaunted Redways paths are a haven for muggers and rapists: they’re often well away from the road, enclosed by trees, bushes and shrubs, no one can see pedestrians or hear them and there are lots of dodgy subways. Horrible. The needs of people to live as a community and to be able to meet each other has to be considered, not just fast roads and huge warehouses and shopping centres. What were these town planners thinking of? They probably live in Art Deco mansions.

    • Hi Desde,

      As a former short-term resident of Milton Keynes I have to agree with some of what you say, although the city centre, the green spaces, the canal, the villages, – I have a friend who lives in Newport Pagnell in a former mill complex, do contrast with the more gloomy parts. It also has good transport links to London and Birmingham.

      Although this article is probably a bit too rosy, a lot of it rings true to me.

      I’ve lived in a lot worse places as well and when a friend moved from MK, where his teenage children had lived all their lives, to Leicester, the children couldn’t understand why all the housing and factories were mixed up together.

    • Paul

       /  September 24, 2014

      Afternoon Desde and Bru

      The building of often soul-less and badly planned estates-both private and council- on greenfield sites without the infrastructure to cope with the needs of the population has always been a problem.

      As i’m sure you both know it was government policy post 1945 to encourage migration from the main urban areas to new towns and estates built on greenfield sites rather than re-developing the bombed cities .And the lack of infrastructure in these new places wasn’t the only problem.For often important extended family ties were broken with the young migrating whilst the older generation remained behind in the old urban areas.So social isolation as well as lack of facilities was also a real problem.

      Thanks to New Labour’s immigration policy between 1997-2010 and the lack of new infrastructure to cope with the subsequent sharp increases in both population growth and of people leaving the main urban areas schools,gp surgeries ,maternity services,etc etc are all struggling to cope in some parts of the country. And the lack of affordable housing both for owner-occupation and in the social sector has been a bonanza for exploitative private sector landlords in places where demand for housing is greatest

      Simply plonking estates on greenfield sites .without the necessary infrastructure clearly isn’t the way forward.And i’d agree that properly planned garden cities and redevelopment of existing urban areas within reach of jobs and facilities is what should be done.However what’s cheapest and what needs to be done in a hurry tends to be the main criteria for government rather than what’s best for sustainable communities.

      ps you may know that i’ve expressed concern at the possible social and environment consequences of allowing the UK population to keep growing at the current rate.Already the UK annual population growth rate is double the EU average.And most of the projected 10 million increase in population between now and 2031 is likely to take place in London and the southern half of England.So given the UK already has one of the worst rates of poverty and inequality in the developed world there’s also a danger that quality of life could also go into freefall for increasing numbers of people in those areas where supply doesn’t keep up with demand.

  6. Paul

     /  September 22, 2014

    A clip from the annual Armchair Revolutionaries Convention :-)

    • ‘Served in the kitchen – teacakes’! Bet they were praying for that bus to come. I like the cool woman in the foreground who doesn’t show any emotion through it all.

    • Hi Paul,

      Very amusing and at that volume, the woman would go down well in China. :)

  7. brusselsexpats

     /  September 22, 2014

    Apparently the two main suspects are of Dutch nationality with some Belgians involved – one is a member of Shariah4Belgium.

    And it transpires another Brussels bomb plot was discovered in time some months ago.

    We are a bit closer to the action here than posters with fevered imaginations living in the wilds of Wales.

  8. brusselsexpats

     /  September 22, 2014

    Sara – Thanks for posting that gem. The “revolutionaries” on the UT have me in stitches at times.

    I’ve said this before but the nearest they’re ever going to get to a revolution is watching a re-run of Doctor Zhivago. Honestly, do you thing they believe the tripe they spout themselves?

    Heard that a plot to bomb the EU Commission – Berlaymont building has been scuppered. According to preliminary reports the bomb had already been made.

    Perhaps the perpetrators ought to contact some of the denizens of the UT to see how it’s done…..

  9. brusselsexpats

     /  September 22, 2014

    Morning all,

    Desde – There are certain jobs only suited to the young and I think being a chambermaid is one of them. It sounds like back-breaking work. Hope you find something more suitable soon.

    • It’s nearly all middle aged women doing this job – the sort who’ve been working hard physically all their lives, looking after children and a home. It’s always the same, those who graft hard just carry on getting exploited. At least it’s an income that’s the main thing. I saw 2 Christmas jobs over a week ago. Already!

    • Hi Desde,

      I guess it might be a good sign that employers feel they need to advertise early although the 2500 redundancies at phones4us can’t be good news.

  10. Working as a room attendant, AKA chambermaid, and it’s the most knackerating job I’ve had. Even the Eastern Europeans aren’t working in this job. Get half an hour to clean a room, which apart from all the cleaning, bedmaking and replenishing stuff, it involves walking up and down the stairs to get supplies. There aren’t trollies either, it means having to carry 3 trays from room to room. I only do 3 days, don’t know how some do 5. It’s a big hotel chain – typical, making lots of money.

    Living in Britain now leads to one becoming jaded and disillusioned: huge corporations exploiting workers, charities whose hard work is done by unpaid volunteers with a few well paid staff in offices, politicians living the good life and so on.

    Disappointed in the Scotland independence vote, it was their chance to get shot of London Westminster politics once and for all. Wonder if the no voters will regret it?

    • Sara

       /  September 21, 2014

      Hi Desde, yes chambermaiding is a back breaking job, especially in the big hotel chains, some rooms have 2 singles, a double bed & a guest bed to change, and like you say, no trollies.

      Re the the Scotland independence vote.. was browsing the UT the other day(prior to the results) & found this nugget from AT42
      The ballot box is no alternative to revolution and it never was.
      If I may be forgiven for twisting the bard we have to take arms against this sea of troubles if we are to end them…
      Because they are not going to give us our freedom – we have to take it.

    • Hi Sara,

      Does this mean she’s moved on from the “cake and bakery” scenario she usually uses?


    • Sara

       /  September 21, 2014

      Came across this article by Ewan Morrison, who started of as a yes but changed to no

      The Yes movement started to remind me of the Trotskyists – another movement who believed they were political but were really no more than a recruitment machine. I know because I was a member of the SWP in the late 80s. As a ‘Trot’ we were absolutely banned from talking about what the economy or country would be like ‘after the revolution’; to worry about it, speculate on it or raise questions or even practical suggestions was not permitted. We had to keep all talk of ‘after the revolution’ very vague because our primary goal was to get more people to join our organisation. I learned then that if you keep a promise of a better society utterly ambiguous it takes on power in the imagination of the listener. Everything can be better “after the revolution”. It’s a brilliant recruitment tool because everyone with all their conflicting desires can imagine precisely what they want. The key is to keep it very simple – offer a one word promise. In the case of the Trotskyists it’s ‘Revolution,’ in the case of the independence campaign it’s the word ‘Yes’. Yes can mean five million things. It’s your own personal independence. Believing in Yes is believing in yourself and your ability to determine your own future. Yes is very personal. How can you not say Yes to yourself? You’d have to hate yourself? Yes is about belief in a better you and it uses You as a metaphor for society as if you could simply transpose your good intentions and self belief onto the world of politics. The micro onto the macro. Yes is a form of belief – and this is the genius of the Yes campaign: they’ve managed to conflate personal self-determination with state power – to shrink the idea of the state down to the self and the question of the future down to ‘belief in the self.’You wouldn’t want to repress yourself and you personally want to be independent in your own life so, the Yes logic goes you should ask the same of your country. Every economist has told us that you cannot transpose the micro-economics of your home onto the globe – that micro and macro are different worlds, with different rules, but Yes has managed to blur the two to say ‘your country is you.’ Your country is an extension of your own personal desires. As the ubiquitous campaign slogan runs ‘Scotland’s future in Scotland’s hands’ – and to reinforce the domestic personal motif the image is that of a newborn – a perfect new self
      .full piece here

    • Good morning all.

      ‘Because they are not going to give us our freedom – we have to take it.’

      I’d pay good money (within reason) to watch the armed revolutionaries stick it to the Man. Trouble for them is, if they bring down the banks they won’t be getting their nice pension the next month.

  11. Good photos.

  12. Hunt the abuse – the posts that led Ally Fogg to ban Bitethehand

    I started posting on Ally Fogg’s blog in July 2012 and was banned by him twice, in July 2014 and again under another moniker in August / September 2014.

    So in order to demonstrate that if anyone has been abusive it’s Ally Fogg, here is a complete record of everything I’ve ever posted on his two blogs, including some of his rather abusive ones.

    In time I’ll make what I wrote and what I’m quoting from other posters more clear, but that’s going to be a bit of a task to complete.

  13. Paul

     /  September 19, 2014

    Afternoon all

    Good to see you back Bitey and thanks for the spectacular photography.

    • Sara

       /  September 19, 2014

      Evening all, great photos Bth.. Well that was a roller coaster of a referendum… what a turn out

  14. In case anyone comes directly here, I’ve posted the latest Travels in China here.

    • brusselsexpats

       /  September 19, 2014

      Fabulous pictures there Bitey – love the flowers at the Buddhist temple and the walkway.

  15. Japanese woman is first recipient of next-generation stem cells

    Age-related macular degeneration results from the breakdown of retinal epithelium, a layer of cells that support photoreceptors needed for vision. The procedure Kurimoto performed is unlikely to restore his patient’s vision. However, researchers around the world will be watching closely to see whether the cells are able to check the further destruction of the retina while avoiding potential side effects, such as bringing about an immune reaction or inducing cancerous growth.

    “We’ve taken a momentous first step toward regenerative medicine using iPS cells,” Takahashi said in a statement. “With this as a starting point, I definitely want to bring [iPS cell-based regenerative medicine] to as many people as possible.”

    • brusselsexpats

       /  September 19, 2014

      Afternoon all,

      Losing vision is one of the more traumatic aspects of growing older. Poor sight can also lead to falls. It would be a real breakthrough if medical research could halt macular degeneration.

  16. brusselsexpats

     /  September 18, 2014

    Morning all,

    Desde – yes you get some real weirdos posting at times. I get the impression many spend their lives in the twilight world of all-night computer games and the thought of real live people dying at the hands of a serial killer doesn’t register on their mental radar.

  17. brusselsexpats

     /  September 17, 2014

    Desde – society is going down a very dark and dangerous path. It’s losing all respect for human life and humanity itself. Doctors are becoming glorified undertakers and boy don’t some of them like to play god – think of Shipman. I even remember some posters agreeing with him, saying that at 67 people “had had their life”.

    67? That’s nothing nowadays. What’s the point of expensive medical research to prolong life if you get a cut-off date from a physician who thinks himself omnipotent?

    • Morning all.

      ‘think of Shipman. I even remember some posters agreeing with him, saying that at 67 people “had had their life”.’ – Bruss

      Crikey that’s worrying.

    • Hi Desde,

      Something here that might interest you.

      A doctor who told a patient who was threatening to kill herself to “go and jolly well do it now” has been suspended for three months.

    • Hi Bitey – that woman was able to prove what the doctor said as her mobile was recording him. He has a negative attitude and only gets 3 months suspended. Some retraining might be on the cards.

  18. brusselsexpats

     /  September 17, 2014

    Desde – as far as I’m concerned euthanasia will be abused just to rid society of “undesirables”. In essence it’s no better than what the Nazis did to their own people long before the war.

    Of course there is palliative care – and it gets better every year. Euthanasia is just a means to save money for the healthcare systems or in this particular Belgian case, for the inadequate prison system.

    I notice that when a very rich person is terminal or in a coma (think of Schumacher or the late Dutch prince Johan-Friso) nobody mentioned euthanasia. Strange when Holland was the first country to introduce it – as usual one law for the rich and another for everyone else.

    As for servitude in the UK, many people are treated worse than Roman Slaves. Another scandal.

    • It’s often about money and status. Look at how long Franco was kept alive when there was no viable life; Ronald Reagan had advanced Alzheimers for years and he wasn’t terminated.

      I cannot see how psychiatrists can say someone is incurable when it comes to personality. It is a profoundly damning and devastating experience to be branded ‘incurable’ in relation to psychological or emotional make up. Each one of us is who we are, we aren’t walking illnesses and disorders. Doctors could lose a lot of respect over this. I recall a case a few years back in England where a father helped his suicidal daughter to die – the judge said he was a loving father who only had the interests of his child at heart and he wasn’t heavily punished. The daughter had been depressed and been suicidal. Could be a worrying precedent.

  19. The other day there was a big police operation in Leighton Buzzard, Beds to rescue people ‘in servitude’. It was unrelated to the previous case in that town where men were being kept against their will to work. Most of the victims are migrants, illegal immigrants or vulnerable Britons. There have now been quite a few of these cases and slavery is alive and well in Britain in 2014. I have wondered if there was some sensitivity here which made the authorities nervous of intervening as in the child abusers gang in Rotherham. The slavers have often been travelling people and it’s claimed they are discriminated against as they’re an ethnic minority.

  20. In Belgium, a convicted killer and rapist is to be allowed to die because his psychological condition is incurable. Apparently this has been law since 2002. Of course this is illegal here as the case of Ian Brady has shown. This could be a great topic on Cif. Just think how it could go: ‘all the Tory party are incurable psychopaths and should be allowed euthanasia’.

    • brusselsexpats

       /  September 17, 2014

      Morning all,


      There is controversy about that. The problem is that Belgium is very poor on giving criminals with psychiatric problems the proper treatment so – in effect – they are saying “he can die because we don’t have the means to treat him”. The legal ruling as much as said that.

      Scandalous really but as he is a murderer few people are standing up for his rights.

      Having said that I wish Marc Dutroux would do the same……

    • Good morning Bruss

      This issue makes me very nervous – doctors saying someone is untreatable and thus they can die if they want. Doctors must mean psychiatrists and they have been wrong so many times and ‘untreatable’ is difficult to define in mental and emotional terms, it isn’t like an advanced tumour. Even so in the case of cancer doctors are careful not to just say someone’s untreatable and the state can help them die, there is a lot of palliative care available and those with untreatable illness are supported in having as much quality of life as possible. Of course it will almost inevitably apply mainly to those said to have a personality disorder, psychopaths and sociopaths. This is already a highly controversial area with many disputing the psychiatric view. I do know of some on Cif who go along with the ‘personality disorders are untreatable’ line which almost by default leads to the conclusion lock them up for life or let them die.

      It could be said that doctors (and the state) are colluding in someone’s suicidal intent here. Is that ethical? It is understandable however that a prisoner with no hope of release must have an unbearable existence.

      This ruling also goes a lot further and the whole question of doctor’s power must be questioned. If a person’s life is unbearable and the state allows them to die, then why do doctors have the power of detention and forcible treatment and, against a person’s will, force them to live a life which in their estimation is not worth living? We might as well do away with all compulsion and coercive powers because the suicidal person has already come to the conclusion that they’d be better off dead. A very tricky issue this.

  21. brusselsexpats

     /  September 16, 2014

    Great picture up there – you could almost use the rooftops as a stairway.

  22. brusselsexpats

     /  September 16, 2014

    Sara – children are wonderful at picking up languages.

    I think there are posters on YTU actually afraid of tackling big issues. Pity nobody told Pointy to sod off when he supported Galloway in his infamous remark. And we’re supposed to believe that Pointy isn’t antisemitic.

  23. brusselsexpats

     /  September 16, 2014

    Hi Desde,

    Honestly Fripouille of all people who is always on about his love-life. Aren’t we all gagging to hear about that?

    Not that I would ever make a comment – I respect others’ posting rights and if he wants to lay his intimate life bare that’s his problem.

  24. brusselsexpats

     /  September 16, 2014

    See also Peter Bracken was boasting about his daughter going to a bi-lingual school in Paris.

    Big deal – children here are routinely bi- tri- and quadrilingual by the time they reach their teens. The advantage of growing up in a minority language like Dutch.

    • Sara

       /  September 16, 2014

      Morning all, re ‘nests’, I don’t remember exactly why adhaman refuses to reply to nested comments, but it seems the only way a poster can challenge his posts is to reply in kind, which may be annoying, but surely It’s not that big a deal.. I mean it’s not like there was some earth shattering ytu discussion going on.

      Great photos BTh by the way

    • Thanks Sara – maybe some new ones later today – or this evening where I am.

    • Sara

       /  September 16, 2014

      Hi Bru – ‘Big deal – children here are routinely bi- tri- and quadrilingual by the time they reach their teens.’

      A dear family friend’s son was bi-lingual at 9, the family were Iranian, but he was fluent in English & Farsi at a very young age, he also had downs syndrome, an amazing, lovely bright kind & lovable boy(young man now)

    • ‘I mean it’s not like there was some earth shattering ytu discussion going on.’ – Sara

      YTU will never change the world that’s for sure! It might change some of its residents in the short term.

    • Hi Bru,

      I had a boss once, long time dead, whose wife grew up on the SHAPE Base in Belgium where she played with children from half a dozen European countries and became fluent in 5 languages. I’ve spent about 5 years in China in the last 12 and my knowledge of Mandarin is all but negligible. But at least it means I don’t get into arguments, which would be very easy. :)

  25. brusselsexpats

     /  September 16, 2014

    Morning all,

    This is what I replied this morning to Fripouille after seeing how he was sticking the knife into Harif last night:

    “Yes actually – me for one.

    You were never on here at the time when two posters, one who has since left, kept up their arguments over the entire – and I mean entire – weekend, starting Friday night. I didn’t hear any complaints.

    At least Harif is topical – four innocent people were murdered in a Brussels museum recently in case anyone has forgotten. Le Nouvel Observateur ran a lengthy article on the rise of antisemitism in France and only yesterday Angela Merkel herself was reported to have made comments on the rise of antisemitism in Germany.

    Belgium has a special force set up to deal with the antisemitism.

    So yes there is a problem and it’s not as though the cheerleaders for Muslims on Cif are exactly shrinking violets. I don’t think I was imagining things when one on here voiced agreement with George Galloway’s infamous “jew-free” comment.

    Given the situation in the Middle East the topic is of vastly greater importance, than comments on one’s neighbours/love life/how much wine one sank on a recent holiday.

    The thing is CiF is for everyone, not just the posters you feel affinity with.

    I have no problem with fluff – have made many fluffy comments myself. Equally I have no problem with people facing up the really serious issues of the day.’

    • Morning all.

      ‘The thing is CiF is for everyone, not just the posters you feel affinity with.’

      That’s the point of it – everyone should be entitled to post, within community rules, and everyone is entitled to ignore stuff they’re not interested in.

      The problem of those who won’t nest makes it very difficult to follow what is being written.

    • Nice comment Bru.

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