Watching The Untrusted Implode

National Holiday when roads are toll free. Cars queuing to get on the Beijing-Shanghai expressway

National Holiday when roads are toll free. Cars queuing to get on the Beijing-Shanghai expressway

There is something wonderful in seeing a wrong-headed majority assailed by truth.

John Kenneth Galbraith


On Ally Fogg, courtesy of Fran & Sylvie:

Writes with the pained urgency of a man who nailed his shoes to a soapbox but forgot to take them off


The BBC’s Panorama programme is reported here to be planning to attack survivors of child sex abuse and others who are uncovering evidence of a “Westminster paedophile network”

And the response of MrsBurnout to this?

That the entire country, whose tax payers pay a large part of her salary, has sunk to a level lower than that of of a banana republic.

“What the actual fuck is going on in this country these days? Seriously. I would call the UK a banana republic were it not so offensive to compare it to comparatively benign Latin American countries!”

There little doubt that any enquiry like the one featured in the programme will in time lead to the exposure of yet more guilty parties at the BBC who hosted and feted the UK’s most prolfic child abuser Jimmy Savillefor some many years.


Ann Tanner (AT42) who’s in paroxysms of delight over the parliamentarian Jeremy Corbyn gaining the Labour Party leadership has made a giant leap from her violent revolutionary position just a couple of  years ago:

MsChin re that Guppy/ Johnson – after the revolution we need to shut down the Bullingdon club – its the stinking canker at the heart of British society. It symbolises precisely what is wrong with the public school system.

Ropes and lamposts? Too good for them!


Montana Wildhack bans all mention of this site – and the comrades bend the knee. (1)

Well here she is commenting on What do you want to talk about?. 22 Jul 2009 2:06pm on the occasion of the banning from CiF of MrPikeBishop.

The hypersensitive modding to protect the sensibilities of ATL writers is probably my single biggest irritation with Cif. Especially in the case of the professional journalists and politicians. They’ve chosen work that puts them in a public arena and they spend their lives telling us how we should conduct ours. If they can’t handle the abuse they receive, they have no business being in the business they’re in. As Harry Truman used to say, “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.” What is especially galling is when BTLers are censored for pointing out hypocrisy in an ATL piece. Don’t like being shown for a hypocrite? Easy — live your principles. If you can’t live your principles, don’t preach them in such a public forum and expect other people to pretend not to notice what a hypocrite you are.


Montana Wildhack bans all mention of this site – and the comrades bend the knee (2)

And here she is again on her favourite subject:

MontanaWildhack commented on To defame religion is a human right.17 Apr 2009 1:25am

I don’t believe that anyone has the right to go through life without being offended and I don’t believe that any thought or idea, no matter how repugnant, should be censored. For example, holocaust deniers offend the shit out of me, but I think they ought to be free to spew their ignorant crap wherever they want to. I’m free not to listen to them. See how that works? By the same token, if I want to say that I think anyone who believes that the Bible is a literal record of history is crazier than batshit, I think I should have that right. People who believe that the Bible is a literal record of history are free to either ignore me or tell me that I’m going to burn in hell. I’m okay with that – I’ll let them. What is not okay is when people who take the Bible literally say that their version of the creation of Earth must be taught in state-funded schools alongside accepted scientific theories or that I have to cover myself from head to toe in black cloth, lest the sight of my shapely ankles drive men into frenzied lust.

And that, my friends is part of why I’m so sad that, not only WML, but also Monkeyfish, HankScorpio, SilentHunter, and Hermine (sic) have all been banned recently. It saddens me that Billplasterer has apparently been languishing in pre-mod for nearly two months now. I didn’t always agree with some of them – and a couple of them almost never – but why on Earth should they be banned? I can easily skip right over their posts if I don’t like what they’ve said.


And to top it all – an invitation to Bitethehand 

Montana Wildhack bans all mention of this site – and the comrades bend the knee (3)

MontanaWildhack commented on What do you want to talk about?.28 Jul 2009 8:48am

“Bitethehand: (posted)

First of all, unless they’re going to contradict me, I think you’ll find that it’s not the moderators who decide the cut off point, but the CiF editorial staff.”

Montana replied:

I know that now. I did not know that in February when I started the (Untrusted) blog. I’m not being disingenuous. I’m not lying.

As for comments that were made on the blog, I’m not responsible for what other people post there and I’m not going to pretend that people don’t sometimes use foul language and say things there that would be moderated here. But you know what, Bitethehand? It’s a public blog. There are no ‘subscribers’. The followers that are displayed there are people who have chosen to have the posts and comments e-mailed to them. You are perfectly free to post comments over there, yourself. It’s not a clique and comments aren’t moderated. You can call me anything you want. I won’t moderate it.  (my emphasis)


MontanaWildhack announces her “walking away from CiF 16 March 2010

On What do you want to talk about?.16 Mar 2010 11:21am

I know I said a couple of days ago that I was done with Cif, but I need to say something about the banning of LordSummerisle:

This should be proof positive for anyone who hadn’t already figured it out that most of the people who have been banned from Cif have not been banned for ad homs, as a few of the luvvies want to believe. Posters are banned from Cif for transgressions against the Guardian’s identity politics bullshit. If LordSummerisle can be banned, anyone can. Those of you who like to tell yourselves that HankScorpio, Monkeyfish, et al., were banned for being abusive to fellow BTL posters are deluding yourselves. Look at how long Ultimathule and Bitethehand were allowed to remain, despite continually attacking other BTL posters. But both of them toed the Graun’s ideological line, so they were allowed to stay until the Cif staff could no longer defend the indefensible.

I suppose maybe I should be grateful that LordSummerisle has been banned for such an innocuous offense — it has wiped away the trace of doubt that I had about walking away from here.

(And for how many more years did Montana continue posting?)


MontanaWildhack celebrates Peter Bracken’s banning from CiF but welcomes him with open arms to her own site.

MontanaWildhack commented on Ideas 13-16 April.14 Apr 2012 8:42pm

My comment wasn’t a potshot at Bracken — it was a genuine expression of surprise at the volume of what seem to me to be mostly crocodile tears about his banning. You may think it’s “low” for me to be consistent in my opinion of someone whether they’re still active here or whether they’ve been banned. I see it as hypocritical to suddenly act like you’ve lost the company of an old pal when someone you never cared for proves himself to be incapable of expressing himself within community standards.


And on Ideas 13-16 April.14 Apr 2012 3:24am

I may well piss off pretty much everyone else who reads this thread with this comment, but here goes:

Are you people freaking serious? All the tears for Bracken’s demise? All the “he kept me on my toes”, “he knew what he was talking about”, etc.?? You’re joking, right? That sarcastic British wit that you’re always saying we Americans don’t get.

He made shit up wholesale as he went along, he made wildly inflammatory accusations of other posters based on woefully obtuse readings of the comments of those posters, he was arrogant, abrasive and utterly dismissive of anyone who dared to challenge his overweening self-regard.

I don’t know what got him banned under his own name, I wasn’t around for that, and I’m generally against banning anyone who isn’t a deliberate troll, so I’ll go so far as to say that I doubt I would have seen his banning as justified.

But miss him? I would think that the only way that any rational poster could miss Bracken would be in the way that one would miss a carbuncle after it’s healed.


And on Ideas for 6-10 April.08 Apr 2012 8:31pm

Well, shall we bury the hatchet and have a hug? I know that I can be rather acerbic, but I don’t actually enjoy feuds and animosity.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think much of the Graun banning people, either. Bracken shouldn’t have been banned. Neither should a whole lot of other people. I’ve only ever banned 2 people from the UT and, yes, one of them was Kawtara1. She didn’t seem to be able to get it through her head that she didn’t have the right to demand that people discuss what she wanted to discuss. She was making the place intolerable and drove away several very much-liked posters — permanently, I’m afraid. The other person’s sole raison d’etre was to hurl insults. I see no need to tolerate that.

(Posted two days before she banned Bitethehand )


And on  on A welcome from Comment is free’s new editor.06 Sep 2010 10:33pm

Related to the moderation issue, I would also like to support amnesty for banned posters. A nice changing-of-the-guard gesture? I even miss certain posters that I never agreed with & it would shatter the delusions that one particular member of the banned harbours that regulars at the Other Place had anything to do with his banning.

(The Other Place – presumably – and the “one particular member” – who?


And on What do you want to talk about?.05 Oct 2009 1:42pm

Yeah. Ultima. I can’t say as that I would miss her, but I do think banning her is OTT. Bring her back, Graun. And bring back Hank, Monkeyfish and Woolly while you’re at it.


And on What do you want to talk about?.04 May 2009 11:25pm

I’m happy that Jay’s coming back and I will cheerfully admit that I’ve come to thing of him as a ‘friend’, but I want to echo/reiterate that it isn’t just about Jay and it isn’t just about posters I agreed with who’ve been banned. It’s the whole concept of banning anyone or deleting anything that wouldn’t get the GMG into legal trouble. As far as that goes, I’m not sure why anything posted in the comments section would get them into legal trouble. BeautifulBurnout – would a disclaimer to the effect that the opinions expressed herein are not those of the GMG not be enough to protect them? And now they’ve got Billplasterer?! Oh the humanity!


Seems you’ve got an “ally in dismissing racism” shazthewombat, in Frog2222 who also seems to think a black man being called a nigga and a houseboy is so funny; (Hehe) he chortles, and the victim has no right to object:

Since then the BiteyCollective ( notably Paul) has insisted that he was a poor little person persecuted by the Evil UT
.Up to a year after Nap left after helping me in my Normandy orchard Paul was still inveighing against the Evil UT who had been nasty to him. Hehe ?


shazthewombat thinks I was lucky not to have been reported to the police for harassment in the past.

Well unlike shazzthewombat I’ve written about that issue here along with the evidence:

There are various accusations of stalking made against me recorded on the pages of this site, from scherfig, MontanaWildhack, MrsBurnout and others. The delicious irony of Montana’s accusation is that she has hosted a site displaying 400 plus comments about me and which quite rightly in the interests of free speech she’s allowed to remain. These were all on public display before I posted a single comment there. Many of them were the kinds of juvenilia you’d expect from a bunch of immature teenagers, some were vicious slurs and libels; others were threats of personal violence. Hardly any addressed the posts I’d made on CiF threads, a sufficient number of which attracted support and agreement from some of CiF’s most respected commenters. Most were straight abuse.

So maybe shazzthewombat you’ll display the courage of your convictions and run the risk of wasting police time. Better legal brains than yours have shied away from such action.

As for:

I would agree that there has been some ‘no-holds-barred’ debate on the UT, but no-one has resorted to the kind of tactics employed by BtH and some of the other commentators on his site.

Have a look at some of the racist, sexist, homophobic abuse from past and present Untrusteds here.

And weren’t you the one who just couldn’t bring yourself to condemning the blatant racism of Turminderxuss calling a fellow UT poster a nigga?    Oh yes here you are:

Paul – don’t do this again, please – don’t give a flying fuck about the language, but the last way I would describe turminder is a racist cunt. Wait for him to get back to you.

Are you still educating the nation’s young children Shazz?



 A new set of photographs here,

(Photographs 27) all of which have been posted before but they’re now together in one place.


Welcome to The Real Untrusted

for a brief introduction to this site – read here

“The citadel of established practice seldom falls to the polite knock of a good idea. It may however yield to a long siege, a pre-emptive strike, a wooden horse or a cunning alliance.” 


End of You Tell Us – 28 January 2015

“Today is the last ideas thread. From tomorrow, we won’t be running these threads anymore. We still really want your ideas for articles, but we think the best way to do that will be to have a dedicated email address for people to send in suggestions. That is being set up asap. The editor of Cif, Kira Cochrane, will be running a talking shop tomorrow to explain more, but when this thread closes tomorrow there won’t be a new one. I know this will be upsetting for some, but please bear with us while we make some new changes to the site.”


 Today’s Music

As from today – (sometime in early 2013) “A Change is gonna Come” and hence the track which is from almost 500, vaguely described as pop and rock, on my MP4 player that I use mainly when I’m running at the gym or outdoors, or when I’m doing things I rather not like ironing clothes, cleaning and so on. This one by coincidence comes top of the list when arranged in alphabetical order. Of course I’ll intersperse them with some great jazz and classical music

Today’s music.

Oriole – Medem / Temba 


In the beginning……….. How the CiF rebels turned hypocrisy into an art form-  is now elsewhere  – making comments posted here easier to access – I hope.

To Comment click here & page to the bottom  

Leave a comment


  1. MasterOfRhyme

     /  October 9, 2015

    How extraordinary, in this bastion of free speech, this monument to freedom of expression and anti-censorship, that the host of this site, once again, has to resort to editing my posts.

    You criticize the Wildhack for banning people from her site but to my knowledge she has never edited someone’s posts there to make it appear that they say something entirely different. What a hypocrite.

    It really does make you look very stupid, Bitey. Very stupid.

    • MoR

      If you were slightly quicker on the uptake you’d have realised by now that this place is by invitation only and that invitation has not been offered to you. You have been extended a great deal of tolerance which you continue to abuse.

      Unless you can advise me otherwise, unlike MsWildhack and various of her disciples, I have never made the promise not to censor comments, indeed I’ve recorded here that I didn’t intend this place to be anything other than a personal account of my time of CiF and the Untrusted. Later this was to include Ally Fogg’s place. However I was persuaded to open up a comment thread and from time to time people who’ve had a similar experience with members of the Untrusted clique visit and post. You do not fall in that category.

    • What’s extraordinary is that you criticise posters here, digging at them where they will hurt the most yet do so from a position of hiding your Oif identity. And the pettiness! Thinking up rhymes to mock, creating a character and changing your posting style so that you can’t be criticised for your posts elsewhere. Others have come on this site and criticised everyone but they’ve done it using the identity they’re already known by or else they do it on another site, again using their usual ID. hermionegingold has had some harsh words for posters here but at least he’s had the honesty to post under his normal posting name. You’re a very cutting poster on Oif but in reality are a big baby: not only can you not say these things to people’s faces you can’t even say them using your regular moniker anonymously online. There is another reason of course for not using your Oif name aside from your pathetic weakness.

      Bitey – I don’t agree with you changing people’s posts as it makes it very confusing and what posters like MasterofRhyme write should be left as they are to show their spite and cowardice.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 9, 2015

      If you were a little quicker on the uptake yourself, Bitey old bean, you would have realised by now that a few well-placed posts from me has you running around the place like a headless chicken posting denials, scrabbling about for “evidence” to support your bizarre and unhealthy obsessions, while those of us who have had the temerity to cross your path elsewhere sit back and laugh at your efforts.

      Jolly good fun, I must say. MOR was responsible for your first cyber-nervous-breakdown a year or two back and now, in a few short days, has reduced you to a ridiculous figure desperately trying to justify himself in the face of critical analysis, and with surprisingly little effort on MOR’s part at all.

      It’s hilarious.

      Toodle pip!

    • Jack Roth

       /  October 9, 2015

      ‘Bitey – I don’t agree with you changing people’s posts as it makes it very confusing and what posters like MasterofRhyme write should be left as they are to show their spite and cowardice.’

      Have to agree with Desde on this one BTH – by editing MOR’s comments you leave them making even less sense than the normal rubbish he/she usually posts.

      Leave them intact or remove his/her posting rights.

  2. The BBC reports:

    In many parts of China, meals often fit a comfortable pattern. After putting down their chopsticks, men commonly push their chairs back from the table and light cigarettes

    From my observation men smoke before during and after the meal and can often be seen with phone and fag in one hand and chopsticks in the other.

  3. Fran & Sylvie

     /  October 8, 2015

  4. brusselsexpats

     /  October 8, 2015


    Yes Obi does look lovestruck. Mind you the lady can thank her lucky stars it wasn’t Bill Clinton as president. She would have needed to wear a chastity belt.

  5. brusselsexpats

     /  October 8, 2015

    Crikey – Why didn’t she just prostrate herself entirely – forehead on floor?

  6. brusselsexpats

     /  October 8, 2015

    Morning all,

    Apart from anything else, I do think bowing and scraping before the monarchy should be scrapped. It’s not done in Belgium as a rule and there is no formal coronation. The monarch just takes the oath in front of the senate and that’s it.

    There are things that need to be updated even if a country keeps the monarchical system.

  7. QUESTIONS still need to be answered about why a bishop was not prosecuted over sexual assault claims 22 years ago, one of his alleged victims has said.

    Prosecutors have admitted their predecessors were “wrong” to caution Bishop Peter Ball in 1993, after his admission on Tuesday to 18 charges of historic sex abuse.

  8. Corbyn rejects formal privy council induction by Queen

    The decision suggested that the Labour leader, a republican, was unwilling to follow convention and bow in front of the monarch, sometimes seen as an essential part of the privy council ceremony.

    Me too – that is a republican, along with about 20% of the electorate I believe.

  9. SLATE reports:

    The Wall Street Journal notes today, China has started selling off an unprecedented amount of U.S. government bonds. And it’s mostly serving as an illustration of why there’s no real reason to fret about The US debt to Beijing.

    • Interesting article Sara and quite inspiring among the deluge of despair from that region of the world.

  10. Sara

     /  October 7, 2015

    Hello All – wondered what people thought of this
    Via spiked ‏
    ‘Brendan O’Neill tried to convince BaharMustafa that free speech is important. She disagreed (like)’ …….

    although O ‘Neil was the far better speaker – I disagree that I would defend the right of paedophiles to publish their thoughts, I think, i would just kill them, with my hands.

    re herm’s visit, no, bru it hasn’t put me off posting, i’ve been called far worse things than stupid.. can’t decide whether i’m, a neo con warmonger or a Syrian rebel/ a Jihadist . or just a left wing Zionist walking a tight rope……..though I do appreciate the support here – but a pretty pathetic outburst from hermione all the same

    disagree with bth too about the 11 year old – his Father should be ashamed – and the woman should be serving a long sentance

    • Sara

       /  October 7, 2015

      i’d make a miserable feminist

    • Sara

       /  October 7, 2015

      a woman of colour.. what a total .. ‘like’… twat

    • Sara

       /  October 7, 2015

      what a bunch of weirdo’s – excusing segregation.. and that woman saying she has never been in a room with a group of women.. get in o neil..

    • Hi Sara,

      disagree with bth too about the 11 year old – his Father should be ashamed – and the woman should be serving a long sentance

      As far as the latter is concerned you seem to be with the vast majority, from the posters I’ve read beneath Fogg’s article, some of whom also want the father and the judge jailed.

      I’ve not been able to find out whether what the father’s reported as saying was part of the trial or a post trial statement. But my view is that he was caught between supporting his son, avoiding his own prosecution for aiding and abetting the corruption of a minor, his son being accused of rape and given his own relationship with the accused, offering her whatever support he could. That’s quite a juggling act to perform. That the judge presumably agreed that the boy had come to no harm must have gone a long way to him suspending the young woman’s jail sentence. There’s quite a demand for the High Court to impose a jail sentence on the woman, but that runs the risk of triggering the kind of damage on the boy that so far seems to have been avoided.

      As I recall, Ally Fogg has two boys that he’s mentioned from time to time in his articles, and when they’re involved in under age sex, as they might well have been already (don’t know how old they are), will he be marching them down to the Bridewell?

    • Boys from the age of 10 can be accused of rape but there are very few convictions: in this case it’s irrelevant as the woman is a child abuser. Many think that children of that age should not be prosecuted.

      It’s very unlikely that this child will not have been negatively affected by this sexual assault, at the age of 11 it is too early to tell. The father and the Judge have made inappropriate comments though they’re not alone in their views and female victims have often been on the receiving end of stupid statements by Judges. Remember the Ealing Vicarage rape where the judge said the victim’s suffering wasn’t very great?

      One thing that was missing in AllyFogg’s piece and the comments was that much of the negativity experienced by male victims is exactly the same as that experienced by female victims. Plus, not all male child abusers are jailed especially if it’s a first offence.

    • Hi Desde,

      Many think that children of that age should not be prosecuted.

      I agree many do but what surprised me was that while he could be accused and tried for the crime of rape, he couldn’t legally give his consent to having sex. Does seem to me to be a bit of a legal anomaly.

      …..much of the negativity experienced by male victims is exactly the same as that experienced by female victims.

      Agreed except the males never get pregnant.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 8, 2015

      Good lord, Bitey. Is there really no limit to your depravity?

      A 15 year old victim of a 39-year-old teacher was a “cad” for reporting her instead of standing by his girlfriend. Now an 11 year old victim of a 21 year old woman could have been charged with rape?!

      Only in your perverted, abuse-apologist little brain. Your post is revolting. I am really not surprised the moderators on the Guardian want your posts to be pre-moderated. Heaven knows what other vile nonsense you tried to post on there that was deleted, and that we will never know about.

      Victim blaming seems to be your “thing”, though, doesn’t it? Your little article “After Saville the confessions” over in the side-bar is yet another putrid example of how children are at fault if they are abused by adults. I wonder if CEOP knows about you… I think it is time they did.

    • MoR

      Your post is revolting.

      Then don’t read them if they so upset you after all I wouldn’t want to be responsible for you losing your innocence by visiting this den of depravity. :) Why not go and read your Rupert the Bear books instead?
      From the BBC News Friday, 3 September, 1999

      In March of this year, an 11-year-old boy was placed on the sex offender’s register for three years for sexually assaulting his two-year-old cousin.

      Ally Fogg:

      i’m not especially interested in the sentence. i’m not a fan of prison at the best of times.

      Seems Mr Fogg and I are in agreement over this.

      From the thread:

      feliciafarrel quoting AntonZ

      My guess is that psychological reports on the boy would have made it clear to the judge that his involvement was far from passive victim – he may even have a criminal record for this sort of thing. If the father refuses to let the boy testify, the judge will have formed an opinion very different to that presented in the media – he may well have been reluctant to jail the victim. You have to remember in these sort of cases no details are allowed in the media – apart from the judgement. You have to fill in the details yourself – the media will always assume that the judgement is irrational – because that sell newspapers, but the truth is that the judge will have reasons he can’t present to the public for reaching the judgement.


      Thank you. A bit of commonsense in amongst all the hysteria. You are absolutely right, which is why articles like this and “trial by CiF” are pretty pointless … in fact worse than pointless – damaging, as they often stir up a lot of entirely unwarranted and unnecessary animosity and prejudice.

      AntonZ 1d ago

      The law is completely inconsistent on the issue of underage sex. A boy of 11 is considered responsible enough to be charged with rape, but not responsible enough to consent to sex. He’s very lucky he’s not been charged with raping the babysitter – because that’s exactly the sort of stupidity that this schizophrenic legal attitude leads to.

      Bjerkley to AntonZ 1d ago

      It’s not inconsistent – the alternative would either be to remove the age of consent for boys (and therefore any legal protection from abusers manipulating them) or make it that the ability to rape is linked to the age of consent, which would make a further mess.

      An 11 year old could be both too young to properly give informed consent to sex, whilst being aware that forcing someone to have sex is wrong. They will not be treated in the same way as an adult offender would, with the knowledge that their understanding of it is limited when compared to an adult, yet still wrong. There may be arguments to increase the age of criminal culpability, but the difference itself is not inherently inconsistent.

      Seems there’s a lot of depraved people around MoR but them I can understand why with your tiny level of understanding you’re having difficulty following the argument.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 8, 2015

      The only blessing in this disgusting, tawdry business is that I have no children of my own. I dread to think what would have happened to them if I did.

  11. A question for our host – when in China have you ever availed yourself of the services of street ear cleaners?

    • Hi Desde,

      There’s guys on water trucks who spray the river water to clean the streets to the tune of “Happy Birthday” and I have seen the ear cleaners, along with masseurs, blood pressure takers, fortune tellers, hair cutters and shoe polishers, but apart from the shoes, I’ve never had any of the other services. I was once asked to go to a fortune teller but when she wanted a live chicken along with a hefty fee I decided I didn’t need her to tell who was going to be better off after that transaction. :)

    • Second thoughts – I’ve also been to a TCM clinic (Traditional Chinese Medicine) for acupuncture on a damaged right shoulder. This involved having a 15cm needle stuck in my left calf, followed by and hour rotating the affected shoulder clockwise and anti-clockwise, then having 15 or so needles stuck in my back and shoulder, followed by 10 minutes of the “glass fire pots” stuck on my back. Not sure the needles and the fire pots had any effect but the shoulder rotation more or less did the trick. The rotary cuff is still damaged and if I want it operated on it’ll need immobilising for three months, but I don’t have any pain now and the only thing I can’t do now is to reach quite as far up my back with my right hand as I can with my left. :)

  12. Paul

     /  October 7, 2015

    Afternoon all

    Bitey-I don’t think Ally Fogg has ever sought to play down the fact that most child sex abuse is committed by males.What he has tried to do is address the rarely discussed issue of child sex abuse committed by women and the double standards that can apply if the victim is male.

    No one knows for sure what proportion of child sex offenders are women.For whilst only between 5%-8% of those convicted are women some research suggests they actually make up around 25% of all child sex offenders .But because it’s a crime so heavily associated with men female offenders are more likely to slip under the radar..

    There’s also the issue of non-sexual child abuse to consider and the fact it can damage a child every bit as much as sexual abuse.There’s some conflicting research on this but most research concludes that women are every bit as guilty as men ofsubjecting children to non-sexual child abuse defined as physical violence ,verbal abuse,emotional cruelty and neglect.And some research concludes that up until the age of 11 women are actually more likely than men to subject children to non sexual abuse.Whereas the reverse is true with regard to children and teenagers aged 12-17.

    It’s estimated that around 60 children are killed in the UK every as a result of the abuse they’ve suffered by those who’re supposed to be caring from them.And women are involved in the majority of those child deaths.So if we’re to effectively address the issue of child abuse in this country we need to look at ALL forms of child abuse.And we need to accept that children aren’t necessarily safer with women.

    • Paul

       /  October 7, 2015

      A brief summary from wikipedia about the issue of the female child sex offenders and the difficulties determining how prevalent they are.

    • Hi Paul,

      The wiki entry says:

      This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. Statistically, females prosecuted for the sexual abuse of children make up a comparatively low percentage of convicted child molesters.

      Whereas I provided research stats from the NSPCC, which as yet no one has challenged, least of all Ally Fogg from whose site, as you know I’ve been permanently censored.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      Hear hear.

      I’m very much afraid our host sneers at victims of sexual abuse when the victims are male (and the perpetrators female) as he demonstrated only a few days ago.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      Dear oh dear oh dear.

      It would seem that the key to this is that boys cannot get pregnant. Therefore sexual abuse of boys doesn’t cause them harm.

      What an extraordinary statement our host has made.

    • MoR

      I didn’t think even you could so lacking in comprehension that you’d even suggest that the “sexual abuse of boys doesn’t cause them harm”.

      Clearly I overestimated your powers of reasoning.

      Of course it causes them harm, but they’ll never get pregnant and experience an abortion, miscarriage or child birth.

      But then based on your posting history you probably wouldn’t care about that would you?

      Do I really have to spell it out to you MoR?

    • But by coming out with the line ‘there’s very little help for male victims of female abuse’ every time, AllyFogg is spreading an untruth that bit further: any man reading that who might think of asking for help could easily think there’s nowhere to turn. That is not so and the majority of services are open to everyone no matter who abused them.

      What do you mean by double standards applied when the victim is male? On the thread in question, as in many others, it tends to be male posters making the ‘wish I was so lucky’ remarks about women abusing teenage boys.

      I doubt that women abusers figure as high as 25% of all child abusers – remember that uncovering female abusers will also uncover more male abusers and it’s still an under-reported crime.

    • Hi Paul,

      I don’t think Ally Fogg has ever sought to play down the fact that most child sex abuse is committed by males.What he has tried to do is address the rarely discussed issue of child sex abuse committed by women and the double standards that can apply if the victim is male.

      In which case why didn’t he write a more sober, less sensationalist article?

      Instead he combined for salacious impact, an 11 year old victim and his father, a 21 year old “baby sitter”, (was there a baby?) a 30 year old teaching assistant and a convicted male rapist from 1982 in an article that with a few tweaks could have graced the front page of all of the gutter press.

      And what problem does he have with the two posts from magnoliaboulevard, other than the fact that they exposed his previous claim that pornography is harmless?

      If he set out to exculpate the role of men in child abuse, then from many of the comments below the line, he’s been a rip roaring success.

      And am I the only person in the universe who considers the term “baby-sitter” for someone looking after an 11 year old boy, to be just the sort of thing that will get him mocked mercilessly by his friends and future work colleagues for years to come?

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      Ah yes. Poor, weak, delicate flowers, women. Victims of their own reproductive physiology. Where would they be without strong, empathetic men like you, Bitey old bean, to put a protective arm around their shoulders and fight off the evil men seeking to sully them?

      Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth, you continue your mission of making sure that young, vulnerable teenage boys are seen as perpetrators and criminals rather than the victims they sometimes are. Your claim that you were once a 15 year old boy is looking very frayed round the edges, old sport.

      Well, I must be off for dinner now.

      Have a nice evening’s vilification, y’all.

  13. brusselsexpats

     /  October 7, 2015

    Ah yes being bored silly in a strange place – I can imagine Wormwood Scrubs would have that effect on a person.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      Good Lord, Madame Expats. Have you no shame, impugning a man’s character in this way?

      However I’m glad of this post in which you accuse me of being a serving prisoner, and in so doing vilified me, an innocent man. It shows to what level some people will sink to tarnish a reputation. Who needs facts or the slightest evidence when you have sheer malice and loathing? The reality is that I abide by very strict codes of conduct – not to mention the law – and any deviation results in arrest and detention, even for the highest placed. I won’t go so far as to indicate that your comment shows you up as pig ignorant as well as malicious, though. That would be churlish and abusive.

  14. brusselsexpats

     /  October 7, 2015

    Desde – The attack on Sara was a disgrace. I hope she doesn’t let it put her off posting here.

  15. MasterOfRhyme

     /  October 7, 2015

    As an aside, JimPress, it is good to see you have found a suitable nose peg.

  16. MasterOfRhyme

     /  October 7, 2015

    I concur, JimPress. It was really bad form of our host to kick that particular hornet’s nest. Had he not done so, none of this would have happened. I believe he has stated before that he cares little for the feelings of posters here in the furtherance of his demented agenda.

    • JimPress

       /  October 7, 2015

      Why do you (and Bitey and Burnout) care about this stuff so much? It’s a genuine question.

      Most of us have been married and divorced, served the odd prison sentence and grown old and ugly in the time that this shit has been going on. Pretty much everybody other than a tiny core of mightily strange people ignores the origins of the CIF satellite sites and just uses them to amiably bollock on. Yes, we all say bitchy things from time to time, but there’s no real malice outside of the Bitey/Burnout axis. Posting here is no more an endorsement of Bitey’s stalkiness than posting there is an endorsement of Burnout’s Shy Toryism.

    • Hi Jim,

      And welcome back. You ask –

      Why do you (and Bitey and Burnout) care about this stuff so much? It’s a genuine question.

      Can’t speak for them, but given MrsBurnout’s craving for self-aggrandisement and popularity and her cynical use of anyone to bolster that addiction, this place will always be a reminder that there’s another side to the stories she’d like people to believe.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      What on earth led you to believe I care, old bean? :)

      I have a very demanding job which has occasional weeks of down-time. You must know what it feels like to be bored silly in a strange place with nothing to do.

      The pomposity of this place and some of its posters cries out for a prick to come along and burst their balloons.

      (It is a little rich, though, suggesting on a site that is dedicated to years-old internet spats, created from resentments so arcane and archaic that they must be preserved in amber by now, that I am the one with the problem if I show up from time to time to remind them that nothing that is said online in a public forum can be taken for granted).

      Toodle pip! :p

    • JimPress

       /  October 7, 2015

      What a strange response MOR.

      I didn’t suggest you’re ‘the one with the problem’, I suggested you’re part of a small and strange handful of people who overly care about long dead feuds. I even helpfully named two of the others.

      The rest of us largely look on with bemusement.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      I think it was the phrase “….and now MOR spitting their abuse at women who have the audacity to post here” that rankled somewhat, JimPress.

      No harm done, though.

    • MasterOfRhyme

       /  October 7, 2015

      I feel I must point out, however, that I am a tad disappointed, old chap. What is the point of being “the straight man” if you won’t pick up a gag and run with it?

    • JimPress

       /  October 8, 2015

      Bitey, while I unhesitatingly salute your indefatigability, I remain bemused.

      Burnout is undeniably a shouty self-deluding self-aggrandising fraud, but, in the scheme of things, she’s an amiable shouty self-deluding self-aggrandising fraud. Some of my best friends are shouty self-deluding self-aggrandising frauds. I’m a shouty self-deluding self-aggrandising fraud. Do we all deserve websites dedicated to our crimes against modesty and decorum?

      What makes an anonymous bottom-feeding barrister, who’s largely treated as a figure of fun even by those who like her, so special and so needing of shaming?

    • Hi Jim:

      What makes an anonymous bottom-feeding barrister, who’s largely treated as a figure of fun even by those who like her, so special and so needing of shaming?

      Well she has, along with others who feature here, got me banned from CiF rather than reply to criticism and comment. And she has appeared ATL which made her, again along with others – Wildhack, Fogg, Ann Tanner, Backtothepoint, somewhat different from the ordinary run of the mill censor.

      Then I was invited to post on Montana’s site until the things I posted challenged the comrades’ points of view, when she along with the others there accepted the ultimatum from the foul mouthed HankScorpio that it was either him or me. I can’t recall MrsB voting for me. :)

      And as far as I know she is the only Guardian ATL writer who’s successfully asked for her entire posting history to be deleted, an act of censorship that for me has quite staggering implications.

      Now as most of the original Untrusties have disappeared from Montana’s site and many of those from CiF, in a way the reason for setting up this place has been fulfilled. But now it has a life of its own, so to speak and while I have the time and the inclination it’ll continue.

      And having just checked the stats, there were more page views here in September, 14,620, than in any other month in the site’s existence.

    • JimPress

       /  October 8, 2015

      Thanks for replying Bitey, but I’m still none the wiser as to why so much passion pulses between you and the barrister.

      The fact that Burnout has written above the line is of no significance. That should be obvious from your own dismal list of YTU regulars that have crossed the line: Montana, an angry lonely American reduced to online raging at people who live on another continent; Fogg, a tedious single-issue blogger; Ann Tanner, a woman so bland that I have no recollection of her ever posting at CIF; Pointy, a man so terminally unappetising there’s no need for me to point out his shortcomings. The only person I can recall who made an entertaining transition from below to above the line was Peter Bracken with his unintentionally absurd paean to the joys of late-life motorbiking.

      I suspect that I’ll never entirely understand what this is all about.

    • Good morning all.

      Now that the Untrusted will not be referring to this site, there’s an opportunity to let it diminish and fade out. As I’ve pointed out to you Bitey, you now have as many pages dedicated to AllyFogg on your right hand side bar as you do to BeautifulBurnout.

  17. Dave the bus driver must be thinking what’s going on in the world – 8 passengers on the bus, that’s nearly as many as he gets in a week and 3 of them weren’t even pensioners. The journey was like a meeting of the Mother’s Union .


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