My short venture into CiFUnderground


In April 2011, courtesy of Montana Wildhack’s Untrusted site I noticed that my name and reputation has been traduced on Cifunderground. Spencer who’s posted on CiF under the name of Tybo since July 2009 kicked off with:

I post on UT sometimes. There are some great people there. Some I am less keen on, but mostly I would spend more time there if there was some moderation.

For me, I don’t really want to have to choose between the ridiculous random overmoderation of CIF which makes you feel like you are just waiting to be banned at any moment for some inexplicable reason, and the out and out unpleasantness that is allowed at UT, where posters like Bitey are allowed to carry on a frankly unhinged stalker campaign against BB.
April 5, 2011 7:22 pm

This was swiftly followed by the following from the slightly renamed beautifullyburntout:

You can have Bitey as well if you want… no….please…no need to thank me……. ;o
April 6, 2011 9:08 pm

sheffpixie added a more realistic assessment, April 6, 2011 at 9:31 pm

To give bitey some credit – he does post up some very good tunes. Heres one that struck me earlier
April 6, 2011 9:31 pm

Not to be outdonehermionegingold, (CiF’s resident cyber trangenderist)  joined in with:


agree in the main and spot on about bitey. in one of my rare forays onto the other place i was genuinely staggered by the open arms reception he received there from some. there’s live & let live which i try to abide by but some things are beyond the pale as far as i’m concerned and his behavior over the years has gone above & beyond and then some. he’s a 100% unmitigated creep as far as i’m concerned. sorry but i am unanimous in that!
April 10, 2011 5:39 pm

I replied:

Well being considered a “100% unmitigated creep” by MsGingold comes as a great relief but can “I” be unanimous Ms Gingold?

And apart from being vacuous she clearly has problems with reading and understanding if she thinks this place (The Untrusted site) gives an open arms reception to anyone, and least of all me. If tonight is like many Saturday nights, there’ll be abuse upon abuse heaped on the shoulders of “best friends” before dawn cracks.

If I visited internet sites for friendship and ego boosting I’d really be a pathetic saddo, a bit like Ms Gingold inching her way down Peckham High Street looking for insect bite potions before she plants herself on WDYWTTA for another day. But I don’t so I can be honest, which people despise far more than hypocrisy.

And naturally the armchair suicide bomber spikeparis (Backtothepoint /Shallcross) couldn’t resist any opportunity to add his analysis of my state of mind:

I agree about bitey. He seems to have a split personality, though. He can be charming as you like to people, post interesting photos and musical links, and engage in civilised discussion, but then suddenly the mask will slip, the biteyarchives will be pored through and a vicious attack launched, distorting somehing BB, Montana, I or someone else posted years ago.

While claiming to be an ultrafeminist, he’s particularly fond of insinuating that women are unfit mothers on the basis of no evidence whatsover.

Such erudition called for a serious response: 

What galls Backtothepoint so much is that all his nonsense is recorded for posterity with him not being able to re-write history as his former Soviet heroes were so expert in doing. I responded on the Untrusted:

I don’t insinuate anything Shallcross, what I say is that any mother or father who spends more time on sites like CiF and this one than they do with their child / children has got their priorities wrong.

I don’t even call myself a feminist Shallcross yet alone an ultrafeminist. What I am is someone who exposes the men who like to portray themselves as sympathetic to the causes of women but in the end demand that they wait until after those men have achieved their glorious socialist revolution and in the meantime expect women to keep doing the dishes, the cleaning the ironing, the cooking, the shopping and looking after the children when they’re not out earning less then their male counterparts.

No distortions, just quotes Shallcross. If you don’t want to deny history then don’t post things you wish you hadn’t six months later. And what irks MrsBootstraps, Montana and Anne Tan is to quote MrsB, they were “done over like a kipper” when they ventured above the line. And not just by me but by the likes of sarka, Emailina, Ultimathule, sambeckett2, mschin, MissK123, speedkermit, Brusselsexpats, ManchePaul, BeatonTheDonis, stevejones123, george60, MrBullfrog, MistyChick, julianabanana, imasmadashell, TristramShandy, clandella and AlexJones, all of whom posted equally critical comments about MrsB’s first article ATL.

MrsB is a practising barrister working in crime, immigration and family law yet people like you Shallcross seek to protect her like a shrinking violet at best and a thirteen year old with learning difficulties at worst. Or maybe you’re just looking for another way to boost your own ego.

Tybo returned with a long and rambling post that concluded:

But most people seem to think that people who just come to sneer and not engage should be zapped. Why on earth should they expect to be given a platform? Troll covers a multitude of things but I see no reason to allow that sort of obvious trollery.

Actually, Bitey is a bit different. I agree, Hermoine, in that I think his behaviour has been so awful and creepy that he should not be tolerated. If nothing else because BB ought to be able to post where she wants without having to put up with it.

But he is not just a troll. What you see on UT is that actually, he wants to engage and socialise. Personally, I think he lost any right to be allowed to by his stalking. But he does not go onto CIF and UT etc simply in order to troll. He does actually want to talk to people.
April 10, 2011 6:03 pm

I suppose I should be pleased about the backhanded compliment of being the yardstick against which all others are judged.

It took PaulBJ to introduce a little rationality into the discussion:


With regard to bitey i think you’re being a tad unfair saying he’s been welcomed with open arms at the UT. Most people there including myself have told him what we think of his behaviour towards BB .But one of the many things i like about the UT is that generally people ,including BB,don’t hold grudges.And in recent weeks bitey has largely laid off her and has contributed more positively to the site.Consequently people are now more civil to him and that includes BB herself.However if he should start targetting BB again i think you can rest assured people won’t be so welcoming.
April 10, 2011 6:11 pm

mbc1955, with a statement of mindblowing pomposity announced the result of the “secret conclave”: (You’d think they were electing a pope)

As for bitey, a secret conclave of administrators has agreed that he’s welcome if he behaves himself, but if he starts acting up the way he has in the past, he’ll be out, no second chance.

We’re hoping to go a long time before getting any serious trolls, but if we do, we’ll act. KT has been kind enough to set us up with a space where we can congregate without being at the Grauny’s increasingly impenetrable whim, and yes, anyone is welcome – even those of the UT who’ve been less than positive about us.

We’ve only been here less than a week, none of the administrators are professionals, and we have no agenda other than letting people enjoy themselves. What this might develop into, we will see.

As for pen and meerkat, from what I can see, neither are likely to come on here, so it isn’t a issue.

Many thanx for your words, and here’s to good relations between senior and junior spin-offs.
April 10, 2011 6:26 pm

I assume “meerkat” is Meerkatjie who had by then made her position ultra clear:

The new underground board is beyond anodyne, isn’t it? 10 minutes on there and I slid into a coma.

There was then prolonged discussion on the form and nature of CiFUnderground during which Tybo continued his obsession:

Trollery and such. To me the problem with CIF is not that they moderate posts or even that they moderate posts that are not racist or otherwise abusive, but that the policy is inconsistent or at least inconsistently applied.

I don’t mind that much what the policy is. I think it should be clear, not too draconian obviously, and consistently applied. If abuse is to be zapped then I think we need to agree what constitutes abuse and ensure that any moderation is not humourlessly literalist the way it often is in CIF. After all it would be a poor forum indeed, if we could not point out what a cunt Colin is on a regular basis.

As it happens I am a moderator on a small site that has been going for years. Apart from complete spam I have not actually zapped anything ever, though there is one right wing American nut job who recently went ballistic and called me a bigot and much more.

So I personally would go for light touch moderation, but what matters as far as I am concerned is that the rules are clear and then people can decide if to risk violating them or not.

I would also ban people like Bitey however, because his cyber-stalking of BB is well beyond acceptable as far as I am concerned. I don’t see that any site however liberal its intention or practice should give a platform for stalkers and bullies. Why should we? (My emphasis)
April 10, 2011 5:24 pm

Suffice it to say that at this time I hadn’t posted anything on CiFUnderground. I did join the fray for a few weeks to answer the accusers, before being banned.

So my question to Tybo is who is obsessed with whom? And as if to prove the point here he is on CiF, two years later:

tybo 2 November 2011 2:17PM

TX I just reported Crimsontide as Bitey to the mods. Lets hope they lance the boil quickly.

Which got this response from GrandpasBarn 2 November 2011 2:47PM

Bella ( or stand in ) How about an article on minding your own business please

Thank you

Back later

And this response from Oneoone: 2 November 2011 8:28PM

Well I see MrsHappyReturns has had to take her leave of us. Will the peterloores add her and smtx01 to the list of the fallen who must be reinstated?  No, their campaign for equally in moderation applies only to those who suffer their mind set. 

To those who maintain that there is no clique in operation on this thread there was ample proof to the contrary today with the rather sickening spectacle of a “commentator” gleefully announcing ( like a spoilt child running to tittle-tattle to teacher ) that he had outted a previously banned poster to the mods

The braying rabble of the clique then proceeded to mercilessly savage this “banned ” poster, with one of their number, caught up in the mob mentality, threatening violence should they meet in person. Quite nauseating

Will this “commentator” now denounce the banned poster Myhero, who under a different screenname has been clogging up this thread with drivel for most of the day?

Of course not, Myhero is one of them, whom they will rush to defend.

The stench of hypocrisy is truly stomach-churning

To which the normally confrontation avoiding PeterJackson replied:


Ah, I get it now. Everybody’s in the clique except you.

oneoone 2 November 2011 9:44PM

Just a little more sycophancy like that peter and they may let you join

I was in my fifth day posting as Crimsontide99 on subjects as diverse as the government proposed relaxation of the green belt planning regulations, the Occupy movement, the Christian Church and capitalism, the parable of the talents, the politics of the Guardian, the increase in people claiming Invalidity Benefit in Great Britain from under 1 million in 1971 to over 2.5 million in 2006, the Bank of China, Fascism and the English Defence League, Buddhism, the Vietnam War, and Safety on the London Underground.

Then on 2 November I found I was being quoted by BeautifulBurnout in a contrived and rather feeble put-down and doubtless an attempt to establish that Crimsontide99 was actually me. Not difficult given that this was my sixth Steely Dan inspired moniker. I posted the following:

Crimsontide99 2 November 2011 2:10PM

BeautifulBurnout, addressing RichJames about her foray into CiF’s radical feminist territory:

Had one of my better posts about my views on radical feminism though. I shall repost it cos I like it.

And thankfully she did repost it:


So we agree that patriarchy exists which is more than lots of the men and some of the women posting here do

I agree entirely that the patriarchal hegemony exists, but it no longer has the grip round the throat of womanhood that it used to have. But to blame all men for a hegemony that has existed for centuries, and think of them as the enemy – especially to blame those who are egalitarians and support the feminist cause themselves – is short-sighted at best and deluded at worse.

The answer is not to create a matriarchal hegemony that oppresses men “just cos they did it to us for so long.” It is to find an equilibrium, an egalitarianism where people are truly treated as equal irrespective of their sex or gender.

Anything more than that is just the prisoner becoming the jailer out of spite, imo.

Mind you, that was back in the days before the manuphage got all weird. But then, I don’t believe I had had an ATL article published yet, so he had nothing to get into a rage about… :p

And not being one to shirk from a confrontation or to expose rank hypocrisy, I responded:

MrsB, you omitted in your post on radical feminism last night to include the rest of your criticism of this part of the women’s movement when you wrote:

Just because rad-fems use the patriarchy as an excuse for not having achieved what they want in their lives doesn’t mean that they are not capable of achieving things if they put their minds to it and put some bloody back into it instead of seeking someone/something else to blame. (And, as a successful woman in a “man’s world”, I am living proof of that, but that’s another story)”

Now let’s overlook the rather patronising put-down in the first sentence, and concentrate instead on the second where you announced to the world how you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps to achieve success in what at the time was, and to a large extent, still is a “man’s world”, namely, the Legal
Profession. I know my admiration of your achievement is echoed throughout the CiF community and indeed in a far wider audience, as demonstrated by the large volume of posters requesting your advice and the way you generously offer it. Your efforts and achievements should not go unrewarded.

I would like to nominate you for the David Cameron Bootstrapper of the Year Award (DCBYA) – the Golden Neo-Con Medal, to be presented to the person who has demonstrated the greatest commitment to carving out a successful self-made career in the face of the adversity created by the current global economic downturn. This downturn, as every self-employed person like you knows, has its origins way back, when with the advent of the welfare state, the qualities you demonstrate so admirably, of self-reliance and self-improvement, were rather too easily pushed aside.

Then apart from the medal itself, the winner will receive an all expenses paid speaking tour to the UK’s major centres of unemployment where she or he will be able to share with an invited audience of long-term unemployed claimants her or his inspirational journey from destitution and despair to overwhelming success.

My initial soundings with the DCBYA have prompted some quite positive feedback, particularly around your acknowledged resistance to the tyranny of the State education system and your championing of pupil withdrawal in favour of supervised home based learning.

As a result the Award judges are even now looking to extend the entry criteria to include other areas of social activity where self-reliance and self-improvement might make a more comprehensive impact on diminishing the attractiveness of the dependency culture that has so gripped our nation of late, though inspiring testimonies such as your own. You will be pleased to hear that the judges are very aware of the splendid work you have done on countering the pernicious ideology of the so called “English Defence League” and the even more despicable “British National Party”, in order to make a very clear distinction between these reprobates and true English women like yourself.

I feel that with this additional social criterion already planted in the minds of the judges, the way is open for you to show exactly how the capitalist ethic, the spirit of the self-made woman and man, the flair of entrepreneurship and the stridency of social conscience, can propel you into a towering symbol for your fellow men and women in the challenging years ahead.

But joking aside let me leave the last word on MrsBootstraps’ claim:

It is to find an equilibrium, an egalitarianism where people are truly treated as equal irrespective of their sex or gender.

Or religion MrsB?

Here’s MonikerLewinski 5 March 2010 7:13AM


Seriously, why buy into the cheap Islamist propaganda about villification?

After 7/7 the country by and large acted rationally. There were no race riots and mass reprisals. The blame was pointed squarely at the violent minority and these are the people that that press have aimed at.

Do you seriously think it is acceptable for these people to spout their hate and for them not be held to account for it?

Why do I always see you focussing in on the natives as if we are somehow uniquely evil. You never have a word to say about the racist minority scum who would have Britiain converted into a medieval caliphate at the drop of a hat. Trust me, these people do not share your political correctness, and yet you bury your head in the sand and concentrate on the BNP / EDL.

Why can you not be critical of both?

The fact is that the people in the country have every right to be concerned about the Islamist radicals in our midst and the press are acting responsible in highlighting them for what they are.

Wider muslims are not being persecuted or villified, if so why on earth would millions of them be so desperate to come and live here from all over the world?

At the moment your one-sided swallowing of muslim victimhood comes across as exceptionally patronising, even by lefty standards.

Update 1

At 3:06pm today Retributivejustice posted the following on You Tell Us with a link to this article:

For all CiF history buffs there’s a new article here – A short venture into CiF Underground.

Montana Wildhack, Tybo, beautifullyburntout, sheffpixie, hermionegingold, Backtothepoint, PaulBJ, mbc1955, penileplethysmograph, Meerkatjie, GrandpasBarn, Oneoone, Myhero, PeterJackson, RichJames, MonikerLewinski, sarka, Emailina, Ultimathule, sambeckett2, mschin, MissK123, speedkermit, Brusselsexpats, ManchePaul, BeatonTheDonis, stevejones123, george60, MrBullfrog, MistyChick, ulianabanana, imasmadashell, TristramShandy, clandella and AlexJones, all get a mention.

The post disappeared at around 16:35 but not before this hollow threat from MrsB:

“I’ve got a friend in the CPS met area who are looking at the ‘problem’”

I assume the “met” refers to the Metropolitan Police, about whom MrsB said just last month:

If a Met police officer told me it was Saturday, I would have to go and check a calendar for myself to make sure…

And this also disappeared at about the same time.

Later on the Untrusted the “problem” turned out to be about s.127(2) of the Communications Act 2003

“A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—….etc etc.

I wonder if MrsB is referring to annoyance etc like this:

Hank – your post about Gary Glitter was up and running when I just checked it out, as well as a good few other of your posts.

Posted in response to this question from HankScorpio:

Any chance anyone can explain to me where my post about Bitey, Gary Glitter and the Boy Scouts went?

Glitter featured on the BBC Panorama programme this evening about the pulling of the Newsnight programme on Savile.

Update 2

HankScorpio posts on the Untrusted:

From my limited knowledge of the long-running BTH-BB spat, it seems to me that Bitey was entirely in the wrong, seeking to out someone who chose to remain pseudonymous online.

I can understand why BB would get angry about this issue. She’s been directly affected by a loony with a vendetta.

As Hank has a short term memory problem maybe he needs to refresh it here

Update 3

BeautifulBurnout writes on The Untrusted:

But even in this day and age, adults excusing adults and accusing child victims of abuse is rife. Bitey whines and moans about people in the past calling him a paedophile, but, frankly, it is fair comment when you consider some of the stuff he has supported in the past – not just flying the flag for the teacher Helen Goddard when she was convicted and imprisoned for a sexual relationship with a female 15 yr old pupil, but also the disgusting comments he made in the Madeleine Martin case – the 39 year old teacher having a sexual relationship with her 15 year old pupil. Barbara Ellen wrote a completely wrong headed piece about it at the time – linky

Barbara Ellen’s piece is here,  – and  – here is but one of the many posts of mine on that thread which demonstrates the mischievous nonsense MrsB is posting:

Now would I have said that if I was arguing that she was innocent of any crime? Clearly she was found guilty and rightly so; it’s the complete lack of proportionality in the sentence and the pandering to tabloid outrage that I object to.

People are welcome to look at my posts on that thread and judge for themselves whether there’s anything I’ve posted there that supports paedophilia. As a barrister, MrsB will know that as the case involved a post-pubescent 15 year old student, the introduction of paedophilia can only be for sensationalist reasons. Indeed MrsB herself had agreed as much here:

“it isn’t paedophilia (that’s why I referred to hebephilia, which is a proclivity for pubescent teenagers”.

So to be perfectly clear, and for consistency, is BeautifulBurnout also calling Barbara Ellen a paedophile?

Update 4 – AllyF

And as MrsB has drawn our attention to Barbara Ellen’s article, here’s something from that other CiF idol, Ally Fogg, from the same thread:

Ally Fogg posted about 15 year old “boys” in mixed sex schools:

“But however generally crap boys might be, however much they might be giggling about tits, passing around porn or whatever, it doesn’t mean they are mature enough to consent to a relationship with a 39 year old who holds a position of authority and privilege over them.”

To which I replied:

Doesn’t sound like they’re very confused Ally, they seem more like thoroughly horrible individuals with well developed strategies to intimidate their female classmates.

But according to you it’s alright to send a teacher to prison for 32 months for a private, consensual totally stupid and indefensible relationship with a 15 year old student. But when it comes to teenage boys blighting the education of their female class mates by sexually assaulting them and intimidating them with obscene pornographic imagery, you think it’s completely excusable because the boys’ physical development runs ahead of their emotional and psychological maturity.

There was a time when such behaviour would be dealt with very severely by the school authorities, but no doubt a parent like you, who’s a bit of a champion of freely available pornography, would argue that what’s good for me is good for my boy and in any case it’s only a bit of harmless porn, so if you or your daughter objects, then tough get a life or shut up.

Ally Fogg is a CiF censor who has called on the power of the moderators to prevent posts like this appearing.

Update 5

Barbara Ellen was traduced for the article she wrote, and leading the charge was no other than BeautifulBurnout with 458 recommendations, and this before the recommendation system was abused.

BeautifulBurnout posted something that might have graced the front pages of the world’s most scandalous red top journals.

She screams at Barbara Ellen:

“Have you ever read any of the accounts of men who were “seduced” by older women when they were young? I summarise that your experience in this is limited to watching The Graduate”

Could it be that MrsB meant “surmise”?         Never mind.

And what are the accounts of “seduction” she provides as well cited evidence, of men who were abused when they were 15 years old?

Well they’re not in the report she cites – “Female sexual abuse of children: ‘the ultimate taboo’” by Michele Elliott.

This report states:

Eighty-three per cent of the women who could remember, said the sexual abuse started before the age of 5, 16% were between the ages of 5 and 10; 1% were between the ages of 10 and 15.

Fifty-five per cent of the men reported the abuse started before the age of 5;

35% were between the ages of 5 and 10; 10% were between the ages of 10 and 15.

The report doesn’t say if any were above the age of 15.

The male victims (N=320) reported that 82% of their abusers were related to them.

When a single perpetrator was reported;

96% were mothers; 4% were stepmothers. When two perpetrators were reported; mothers were abusers in 45% of the cases, along with sisters, grandfathers, and other males; 22% of dual abusers were stepmothers; and 33% were babysitters and family friends.

So the report isn’t about 15 year old post pubescent males being “abused” by 38 year old regular Christian church going teachers like Madeleine Martin, but almost exclusively about young children being abused by their immediate family.

So essentially, it’s totally irrelevant to the subject of Barbara Ellen’s article.

But so what does it matter if the Bar Council’s representative on CiF can get some cheap acclaim from her admiring posters, all 458 of them?

The Bar Council’s barristers, as I understand, need a law degree and an apprenticeship to wear that silk and wig, but apparently no qualification in well researched evidence to abuse Guardian journalists.

Update 6

Ally Fogg was almost rampant on the Barbara Ellen thread and as someone who has always had a lot of time for his views, I’m almost reluctant to post this.


No I jest.

AllyF instructs us:

“Teenage boys are incredibly gauche and clumsy around teenage girls, not least because the travails of adolescence mean that they quickly learn that there’s nothing a teenage girl likes better than to humiliate, belittle and mock a male peer.”

Of late I’ve wondered how Ally Fogg, so long someone with his tent firmly secured in the feminist camp, managed to shift seamlessly into the Menz for Justize roadside lay-by.

I need time to think about this transition but maybe this post offers a clue.

But before I do his comment throws light on the dilemma faced by Ms Martin and AllyF’s humiliated, belittled and mocked male peer. And here, probably unwisely I venture into the area normally reserved for the psychoanalysts.

Could it be, that she found herself the only person who, like Ally,  could understand the turmoil that had engulfed the 15 year old’s psyche and enabled him to overcome his “gauche and clumsy” feelings? –  and well one thing led to another?

Or maybe she just enjoyed, to quote kizbot, “shagging” a young man?

Who knows?

And no I’m not trying to excuse here, but rather to understand how someone can throw away their career for that proverbial mess of pottage.

Update 7

On the thread following the article There is no worse sin than turning a blind eye to a paedophile’s activities, MrsB posts:

All we can possibly do is to try and educate our own children so that they can recognise inappropriate behaviour immediately and feel safe enough to be able to warn an appropriate adult about it.

She might have added that it’s a bad idea to encourage those like her friend HankScorpio, to make false accusations of paedophilia. (see Update 1) She might also have added what she did subsequently to ensure that the piano teacher, whether or not he was still alive, was dealt with appropriately.

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